185 | Cancer at Work: How to Support Employees Through Diagnosis, Treatment and Beyond (with Tara Ferguson)

Cancer touches almost all of our lives at some point, whether that's through our own experience, through someone we care about, or through a colleague, friend, or family member who receives the diagnosis.

And because so much of life is spent at work, there will inevitably be times when managers and HR teams are supporting someone who has cancer, is going through treatment, or is living with the long-term impact of cancer, or is caring for a loved one who's affected by cancer.

But knowing that support matters and knowing exactly how to provide it can be two very different things.

What should you say when someone tells you they have cancer?

What support might they need from work?

What should managers understand and be aware of?

And what can HR put in place to make sure that people are supported well, both during their initial treatments and in the years that follow?

That's what today's episode of HR Coffee Time is here to help with.

If we haven't met before, hello, I'm your host, Fay Wallis, a career and executive coach with a background in HR. And if you have listened to or watched the podcast before, welcome back.

It's wonderful to have you here with me again.

Today, we're joined by Tara Ferguson.

Tara spent more than 20 years in senior in-house HR roles at organizations including PepsiCo and Unilever before she then founded her business, Onward with You.

That experience, combined with her background in HR, led her to create the Cancer Confidence Framework, a clear and practical approach to helping managers and HR teams to support the people at their workplace who are affected by cancer at work.

In our conversation, Tara shares what her own manager did that made such a difference to her.

She shares why work can sometimes play an unexpectedly positive role during cancer treatments, what we need to understand about reasonable adjustments and legal protections, and she also shares really practical steps that HR teams can take to make sure that their organizations are better prepared to support people affected by cancer.

I'm so grateful to Tara for joining me to share both her expertise and her personal experience so openly with us.

I hope you're going to enjoy meeting her and learning from her as much as I did.

Let's go ahead and meet her now.

Welcome to the show, Tara.

It is so wonderful to have you here.

Oh, thank you for having me, Fay.

It's a pleasure.

Oh, you are very welcome.

And I thought I would start us off by asking if you'd be happy to share the story behind your business, and tell us a little bit about it.

Yeah, absolutely.

So I spent over 20 years working in HR roles in corporate, but I'd always wanted to set up my own business.

I'd always planned that one day I would do the things that I really loved and not have to do the things in HR that I didn't really love doing.

And a few things happened that meant one day came a couple of years ago.

Um, I thought I knew a lot about how to deal with an employee with cancer from all those years in HR, but it turns out that there was a lot more that I didn't know.

So it made me feel really strongly that I wanted to do something about that when I was better, when I got through my initial active treatment And the context within which cancer exists is very different now to even what it was a few decades ago.

It was very much if someone was diagnosed with cancer, it was seen as, uh, certainly in the workplace, it was either treated like an acute illness, and people would go off, have their treatment.

There wasn't that many treatments available, so maybe chemotherapy, radiotherapy, surgery, and then they would come back when they felt better, and, and that would be it.

Or sadly, for a lot of people, it ended up being an exit from the workforce, so either an early health retirement or in some cases a death in service.

However, the context now, earlier detection and advances in medicine mean that cancer's very different now to how it was.

People are much more likely to survive, which is great, but there are also lots more treatments available.

So I would like workplaces and, and the HR profession to really start thinking of cancer as a chronic condition that has to be managed often over a long period of time.

And so that was the idea behind, uh, setting up my business, Onward With You.

Oh, thank you so much for sharing all of that with us, Tara.

And it sounds like you've been through such a difficult time.

Although it's resulted in you creating this fantastically supportive business, I want to make sure that at this point I check in just to ask how you are now.

Yeah, absolutely.

And, uh, as far as I know, um, three and a bit years beyond my diagnosis, I'm cancer free.

I have regular scans, um, that confirm that.

So, um, from that point of view, all is good.

However, um, even after all of that time, my diagnosis still has an impact every day.

So the kind of cancer that I had was a hormone receptor positive breast cancer, and that's one of the most common cancers to be diagnosed.

And because it's common, there's been a lot of research and a lot of science into the treatments and also into prevention of recurrence.

So all of the things that are available now mean that I finished my chemo, finished my-- had my surgeries, and I was then put immediately onto a 10-year medication plan, uh, to try and stop any recurrence.

So for me, that means I was put into an immediate medical menopause.

I take tablets every single day.

I have injections regularly to suppress my ovaries, and I'm dealing with the side effects of all of that, plus menopause side effects.

So although I, I, I feel well generally, and I f- I live a really kind of full and active and busy, happy life.

Cancer definitely hasn't left my world and, and it takes up a significant amount of my time and my head space still.

And I think, just to note as well, like if I was still in employment and not self-employed, it would be having a huge impact in, in the workplace, and I would really need my manager and my employer to understand that and support it.

Gosh, every time that I speak to you, Tara, 'cause we've had a couple of conversations before recording this interview today, I learn so much and you make me realize how little I really knew about cancer and the impact that it can have.

So firstly, I'm, I'm so pleased to know that you're okay.

But- Secondly, I am genuinely a little bit surprised by how much of an impact cancer is still having on your life and how long the treatment is.

I just wouldn't have been aware of that at all, and it does make me think back to when I had my HR career.

I now think, although I always really did try to do my best when it came to supporting employees with cancer, I think knowing you and hearing more about your work and your experience, whether that's your personal experience or your work experience, makes me realise there's so much that we could all learn

and, and be doing to make sure that we are supporting our colleagues at work who may have cancer, or supporting the managers that we work with who have people within their team and, uh, they want to make sure they're doing the best they can to support them.

There is just so much we could be doing and so much we could learn.

And I know that you have some statistics about the impact that cancer has in the workplace.

Would you be happy to share what maybe one or two of those statistics are with us all now?

Uh, yeah.

I think most people will be aware of the UK statistic that if you're born in the UK, one in two people will have a diagnosis of cancer in their lifetime.

But traditionally, that was always something that happened to older people generally, um, and it didn't impact the workforce as much.

There's a number of factors that have changed that, but at the moment, over 1.5 million people of working age are impacted by cancer, and that's either through a diagnosis themselves or through caring responsibilities.

And when I set up my business, I was really conscious of the, the, the business case for doing something about it and supporting those HR professionals who want to do something about that.

So to put that into perspective, that number is higher, that 1.5 million is higher than the number of statutory parental pay, so paternity pay, maternity pay, that is claimed for first-time parents in the UK every year.

So you can say that statistically, you're more likely to have an employee impacted by cancer than you are imp- than impacted by becoming a new parent.

And I think that really stands out for me.

I mean, we have a huge amount of work that we do on parental leave, flexible working, um, lots of things to help our working population who are parents, and rightly so.

But that population is, is smaller, um, than the population that needs some support around cancer and the impact of cancer on them.

So that, that was quite a stark reality that I discovered.

Gosh, yes.

I, I really wouldn't have realised that statistic was going to be so high, and I think I've been quite limited in my thinking around support for people within the workplace when it comes to cancer.

I hadn't really properly considered, actually, the fact there will be so many people who have got caring responsibilities for someone within their world, whether that's, you know, a, a partner or a spouse or a child or a parent or a grandparent who needs support who's going through cancer themselves.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think as we are living longer, there are more older people living with cancer as well as the working age.

Sadly, there's also younger people who have cancer diagnosis as well, and all of those people want to, want to work, want to earn a living somehow.

And I would f- I would say all the people kind of want to do a good job, but sometimes they just need that bit of support, and that could be if you've got someone in your team who's maybe been with you for two years, um, you might not have any idea that three or four years ago they had a cancer diagnosis and they're still dealing with the, the impact of it.

Actually, this does feel like the perfect point for us to move on to talk about what support can actually look like.

I think hopefully, well, I'm pretty sure you will have convinced everyone watching or listening just how important it is to really be thinking about how we can best support people within the workplace who are being impacted by cancer.

So moving us on now to start thinking about support, I know that you've shared that your line manager was incredibly supportive of you, and you were really appreciative of them when you actually received your diagnosis and were going through treatment.

Would you be happy to share what was it that made them so brilliant and made you appreciate the support that they gave you?

Yeah, definitely.

I think taking a little bit of a step back first, though, I heard someone at a conference recently say that when it comes to cancer and a cancer diagnosis, that actually good line management support starts well before that diagnosis.

So we, we're really familiar in HR of, of the importance of good line managers, and if a good line manager has a great relationship with the employee, then it makes a much, much easier conversation if that employee is facing a diagnosis or if they've got somebody they're caring for who is.

So I personally felt really safe and comfortable to share my initial concerns with my line manager.

I told him when I was first going for investigations.

He knew that I'd had biopsies taken and that I was waiting for the results.

So although it was hard, the day came when I told him about my diagnosis, he already was coming from a place of support and empathy and understanding.

Things that he did that made a difference.

So he never made any assumptions and never kind of pretended that he knew the answers or knew what to say.

He was really open when he wasn't sure what to say, and he would very much take my lead on what to do, how to do it, who to communicate to, all of those kind of things.

He, he very much let me lead but was there to support.

From a working point of view, he offered me options.

So when I first told him about my diagnosis, I at the time was a people business partner supporting two of the exec team in the business, and he immediately said, "Why don't we take one of those groups away from you now?"

Um, and that was really powerful because I didn't actually start treatment for a while after that, but he recognized, possibly even before I did, what the kind of emotional load would be and the logistical kind of just the organization that has to take place before you can start cancer treatment and the logistics of it.

So that was fantastic that he offered me that, and I said yes.

So overnight my workload was reduced significantly.

He was really open as well to me wanting to work during treatment, uh, which I said that I wanted to when I could and if I could.

But we both had to be really understanding of the fact that my capability and my capacity was pretty unpredictable, particularly during things like chemotherapy.

I would have some days that I felt absolutely fine and able to work, other days that I really wouldn't, and we couldn't really predict that with much accuracy.

So there was definitely Times that I said I would be working and I, I sent him a message and said, "Do you know what? I can't today." And he was really, really understanding of that.

Well, it's really good to hear that you had such a positive experience with your line manager, and there's so much there that we can all take away from, so much we can learn from him, from you having shared that with us.

And I feel like maybe we need to, um, clip this little bit of the, the recording and send it to him, Tara, so, uh-

he

knows what a fantastic job he did.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's, that's not the first time somebody's said that.

And, um, yeah, Chris, if you're listening, um, I know you don't like all the attention, and you think it's just who you are, and you were just doing the right thing.

Um, but time and time again, I'm reminded of just how, how great your support was.

I

really hope that Chris gets to hear that message and knows how much, uh, he's appreciated by you, Tara.

So again, moving us along slightly, you've been wonderful at sharing some of those key things that Chris did that really helped you throughout the process when you received your cancer diagnosis and went through treatment.

I know you've got some other key messages that you'd really like to share with us all today.

Would you be happy to share them with us now?

Yeah, absolutely.

I think there are some messages that I'd like to get across to anyone in HR that, that is listening, and equally, those messages to get through to, to businesses and to line managers as well.

I think it's really important that we don't underestimate the positive impact that working can have during cancer treatment.

Now, I'm not saying for a moment that we should be forcing people to work while they're, while they're having cancer treatment.

That's not the case, and for some people, it won't be appropriate, it won't be possible, it won't be something they want to do.

But I've been really surprised at the am- number of people that I've met who work was a really integral part of their recovery.

So work is often part of somebody's identity, and it's a, it's a part of their life that they don't want to lose when it feels like their whole life is focused on cancer.

It can be really isolating.

It can be a little bit boring.

I get bored of myself, um, sometimes.

And being able to do some work can really give a welcome space from a world that, that is dominated by cancer.

It can-- and can help people feel like they're of value, so not everything about them has broken.

For me, when I was going through chemo, the word that I used was that it was…

I felt like I was broken.

I felt like emotionally, physically, everything had just broken.

And being able to work during that time and have feedback from my manager, from my colleagues, that it was good to have me, um, that it was appreciated that I had done this piece of work or that piece of work made a massive difference to me mentally during my treatment.

A little tip that I give people if they think, well, what kind of work can you do when, when, uh, when it's not very predictable when you're able to work?

I mean, I only worked a few days every fortnight.

And I would always say look at that list of important things that aren't necessarily urgent, the things that we never get to on our to-do lists because they're not urgent.

They don't have a, have a kind of fixed deadline.

Those are the kind of things that somebody could do in the time that they're able to work and they're feeling up for it The other thing I would mention is the legal protection as well, which is really important.

So a diagnosis of cancer is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act from the point of diagnosis, and it stays there for life.

And it's that for life bit I think that sometimes we forget.

Reasonable adjustments are a legal requirement to consider even once the active treatments are complete.

And when I spoke earlier about just how much cancer impacts me even today, if I was employed at the moment, I'd definitely be needing some of those reasonable adjustments, whether that would be additional time off or flexibility on hours, being able to work from home at times if I was office-based, those kind of things.

Nothing major, I would say, but it's really important to remember that the Equality Act still applies.

So you might have people in your organisation who, as I said earlier, you may not have been around when they had their cancer diagnosis and their active treatment, but they could still be covered by the Equality Act if they come and speak to you and, and are looking for any kind of reasonable adjustments.

Oh, it's so helpful to have all of that covered.

Thank you again.

I'm saying thank you again.

Thank you so much, Tara, and my, my employment law has never been the strongest aspect of, uh, my work when it comes to having worked in HR, and I have to say, I hadn't fully appreciated the fact that it gives you that protection, which it should do and is quite right.

But, you know, for life, and that you could potentially be working with people who have had a cancer diagnosis, and you're not actually aware of that.

Have you got any thoughts or recommendations when it comes to those sorts of situations, actually?

Yeah, I think I sound a bit like a broken record, but it- it's down to that line manager relationship.

Because you can imagine if you've got a really good line manager, and that line manager cares about you as an individual and takes an interest in you as an individual.

And let's just say for example, so one of the side effects from chemotherapy can be something called peripheral neuropathy, and that's when you have numbness in your fingers and in your toes.

Now that could have a huge impact on somebody working.

So if you've got a line manager who notices that the individual maybe is struggling with some kind of manual dexterity or perhaps the employee tells them, "Actually, I've got this peripheral neuropathy and it's really important

to have my workspace be of a certain temperature, and it affects me worse when it's colder," those kind of things, then that conversation just becomes part of those line manager one-to-ones.

And it- it's not like I wouldn't suggest you go out and survey all your employees and say, "Who's had cancer and who needs some support?" It's really about getting to know the whole individual, which as we all know is- is part of being a good line manager.

Yeah, the importance of the line manager is something that I feel like is emerging as a theme that I have no control over.

It's a, it's a good thing that it's emerging on the podcast this year.

It keeps on popping up in various guises.

And I do have a couple of other episodes in the pipeline, hopefully, where I have some other people coming onto the show to share lots of advice with us on how to help our line managers be really strong line managers.

And, and help them to build that trust and recognize how important it is.

But so when we hopefully have got these fabulous line managers in place, and it means that people working for them feel they're able to open up and share that they have a cancer diagnosis or perhaps they're expecting a potential cancer diagnosis.

Or maybe actually let's extend this beyond line managers to HR professionals as well.

I know it can feel worrying as the line manager or the HR person being spoken to that you're going to say the right thing, that you are going to be as supportive in that moment as possible.

So it would just be great to hear your advice.

I know we've heard some brilliant tips for how your line manager responded with you.

But do you have some other tips or words of wisdom for anyone who's in that situation so that they handle that first really important conversation as best as they can?

Yeah, definitely.

I think it's really important to remember that you don't need the perfect line and that you don't need this.

There's not a script that you can follow really.

It's totally okay to say that you're not sure what to say.

I would start by thanking them for sharing that news with you.

Make it clear that you have every intention to support them Ask them what they think that support might look like.

I think confidentiality is important, so don't assume that because you're being told with, if you're a line manager or HR that, that that means it's public.

Um, it's not, and there's legal protection around that information as well.

But be prepared first for the answer from them to be, "I don't know what I need," or, "I don't know what the future looks like," because that's quite common.

You get a cancer diagnosis, and it's a while before you understand the, the reality of what's going to happen next.

But be really clear with them that they can ask you or come to you whenever they ha- know more information, if they've got any ideas of what they might need.

Uh, you don't need to make a plan immediately, but the best thing that you can do is just hold space and empathy for them when they need it, and then, then continue to check in regularly

I always think it's really reassuring to be reminded that in any conversational situation may m- where you may feel worried about doing the right thing, which of course is a good thing, it shows that you care, that there isn't a perfect way of handling any situation, and that it's okay not to have all the answers.

So I always think that's such a reassuring message, Tara.

And as you were sharing it, I was also conscious that a lot of what we've talked about today really focuses on understanding more about the impact that cancer can have on people within your workplace.

Thinking about how, as an individual line manager or an individual HR professional, we can potentially best support our colleagues who are being impacted by cancer.

I think I really need to ask you one more question that broadens this out a bit.

So thinking of the fact that most people listening or watching work within HR, what advice do you have for everyone who's representing their HR function as to what you think they could be putting in place across the whole organization?

So not just advice on how they handle that sort of individual conversation, more like what structural things maybe or company-wide things do you think would be your recommendation?

Yeah, absolutely.

I think my view is that there are a number of parallels here with mental health at work because it's something that has a huge impact.

Uh, it's often invisible.

There's a bit of stigma about it as well, and I think there are different things that organizations can do.

I would categorize them under kind of areas or pillars.

So one would be about awareness.

So I know lots of businesses already do this, but the more we can, we, we can do around awareness of different kinds of cancer, the impact of cancer, those kind of things is, is important and just starts, um, chipping away at the stigma.

It's not the big C, it's not whispered.

It's actually, we can have a conversation about breast cancer and, and it's not a big deal.

The second pillar, I would say, would be around capability.

So that would be about making sure that you in the HR team are well-informed and you understand your role and you understand the impact of cancer for the individual and for the business, and that you can clearly articulate why it is, why there's a business need to do something about it And line manager capability would come under that pillar as well.

So doing some training for your line managers in the kind of conversations to have, but also just giving them that bigger awareness of cancer.

And then the final pillar I would say is more around in, in the mental health side, this is where I would talk about kind of treatment and providing treatment options.

Um, I don't think that's the same with cancer, but I do think in that similar space is around support for prevention.

Uh, so whether that is financial support and, and screening, um, programmes and those kind of things, or early, early detection programmes, whether it's about giving people time off for their routine checks.

The amount of people who miss their mammogram appointments is incredible, and, and a lot of people say they were working, they couldn't make it, and they didn't want to ask for the time off, those kind of things.

So I think being really upfront about support for early detection is also an important pillar here.

And all of that is probably wrapped up in a policy, and I would advocate a specific cancer at work policy that combines all of those things along with what happens when someone does get a diagnosis, what's available to them, how their absence is managed, and so on

Oh my goodness, I hadn't even thought about the fact-- well, I don't think I, well, I didn't, I didn't know that so many people miss appointments that are that important.

So gosh, I've just picked up on one thing that you've mentioned, haven't I, Tara?

But all of it was incredibly helpful.

I'm so grateful to you for coming on the show to share all of your knowledge and your insights with us, and I can only imagine how many resources you could recommend to us all to learn more.

And we're at the part of the conversation where I try to ask every guest who comes on the show if they have a book recommendation or a resource that they'd like to recommend.

So I'm really looking forward to hearing what your recommendation is.

Are you happy to share it with us?

Yeah, definitely.

So I had a think about a book, 'cause there are plenty of books about cancer specifically, very medical, very dry.

I'm not sure there's one about cancer at work specifically.

But earlier in the year, I saw the comedian Mark Steel talk about his experience with cancer, and he had a c- a throat cancer.

He wrote a book called The Leopard in My House, and it is a brilliant read, or you can listen to it.

I listened to it on Audible, and he narrates it, and I couldn't stop laughing.

He brings so much humor to a really serious topic, but through that he also gives real insight into the realities of a cancer diagnosis and treatment.

So I'd recommend that to anybody to read or listen to.

And then in terms of resources, so I think we're gonna put a link in the show notes to a resource that I've created, which is 12 common questions for HR and line managers that they might ask and, and my answers to those questions.

And I've also got the Cancer Confidence Framework, which gives you a range of options that you might want to put in place in your organisation.

And then particularly for HR people, there's a Cancer Confidence HR masterclass that I've developed, which is essentially everything you need to know, uh, if you work in HR about cancer.

So those are available as well.

You have spoiled us, Tara, with all of those resources and that book recommendation.

That's so much for people to be going away and checking out.

Thank you ever so much.

And you're absolutely right, I will put links in the show notes for everyone who is listening to the audio version of this podcast, and I'll also put links in the YouTube description, which is below the video version, if you're watching the video version, so you can very easily find them all.

And for anyone who has been listening in today or watching today and thinks, "Oh gosh," they'd love to know more about you and your work and get in touch with you, what is the best way of them doing that?

Uh, so you can reach me on LinkedIn or through my website, which is onwardwithyou.com

And of course, I'll put links to both of those in the show notes and description as well.

So all that leaves me to say is a huge thank you for your time today.

It has been wonderful having you as a guest on HR Coffee Time.

Thank you so much, Tara.

Well, thank you so much for having me, Fay.

It's been great.

Oh, you're very welcome.

I hope you enjoyed meeting Tara and learning from her as much as I did.

I learnt so much from her during that conversation, and some of the key things that really stood out for me were just how significant the impact of cancer can continue to be long after someone's active treatment has finished.

I really hadn't appreciated that properly until speaking to her.

I also really liked what she shared about how important it is not to make assumptions about what support someone might need, and I thought it was really reassuring that she told us that we don't need to worry about having the perfect words and the perfect thing to say when someone shares with us that they have a cancer diagnosis, and in fact, there probably is no perfect answer.

Instead, her advice about the fact that you can thank them for telling you, listen to them, ask what support would be helpful, and keep checking in as things change all just felt so helpful.

And of course, one of the strongest messages running through our conversation was just how important good line managers are.

Building strong relationships and trust with people before something difficult happens can just make such a difference if someone later needs to ask for support.

Tara also gave us lots to think about from a wider HR perspective, from making sure that line managers have the confidence and the knowledge to support someone who's affected by cancer at work, all the way through to raising awareness and thinking about early detection, and making sure that the right policies and support are in place across the whole organisation.

If today's conversation has prompted you to take a closer look at how well-prepared your organisation is to support someone affected by cancer, make sure you take a look at Tara's resources.

I've put links to everything that she mentioned in the show notes and the YouTube description for you, along with links to her website and her LinkedIn profile.

You'll also find a link to The Leopard in My House by Mark Steele, which was Tara's book recommendation from the episode.

Before I say goodbye, though, could I just possibly ask you that if you found today's episode helpful, please could you share it with another HR or people professional and recommend that they listen to it or watch it if you think that they'd really benefit from it, too?

It would just be wonderful to reach and support as many HR professionals as I possibly can with this free show.

Thank you so much, and take care, and I'm looking forward to being back again with the next episode for you in two weeks' time