172 | HR and AI: How One Company Helped Employees Embrace AI (with Laura Maffucci)

Today I'm covering a topic that I've resisted dedicating

a whole episode of the show to for absolutely ages, and that topic is AI.

I haven't wanted to have a whole episode about it until now, because the technology

is changing so quickly all the time, I was worried that the episode would

end up seeming really old-fashioned and just out of date too quickly.

But when I was introduced to Laura Maffucci, I changed my mind,

because Laura is the head of HR for a tech company called GP.

She oversees their global workforce, talent, and employee experience with

a people-first mindset, and when I met her, it was fascinating to hear how

the company she works for has embraced AI, and how she has played a big role

in the way that it's been adopted.

So I invited her onto the show to talk about how she personally feels about

AI, the ways she thinks it can be useful, how GP, the company that she

works for, has gone about utilizing AI and encouraging everyone to use it.

And she also shares her thoughts about the fact that so many people have

fears that their jobs are going to disappear because of AI taking over.

I really appreciated how honest and authentic she was in the conversation,

and she shared some brilliant tips.

She is just brilliant.

I think you're really going to like her.

She shared brilliant tips for us all to take on board if we'd like to use

AI really well, both for ourselves as individuals, and also within the

organizations that we're part of AI clearly isn't going anywhere.

It's here to stay.

And from the work that I do supporting HR and people professionals, I can see

just how important it is to keep up with it, or even better, for you to

be playing an active role in shaping how it's used within organizations.

So I hope you're going to enjoy learning from Laura as much as I did.

Let's go ahead and meet her now.

Welcome to the show, Laura.

It's so fabulous to have you here today.

Thank you so much.

I'm excited to be here and chat.

Oh, that's lovely to hear.

And I mean, I have to say to everyone listening or watching, Laura is so kind.

She has had to get up at 7:30 in the morning for this interview because of

the massive time difference that we have.

So, um, yeah, thank you so much, Laura.

I don't think anyone else has made that sacrifice of

coming on the show this early.

No sacrifice at all.

I'm an early bird.

People joke around with me that I, I live on EMEA time

anyway, so, um, it's all good.

Fabulous.

Fabulous.

And well, I better start us off by diving into the topic that

you are very kindly here to talk about with us today, which is AI.

So before I start asking you all about how you've been using AI at work, I'd

love to ask you what you think of AI.

What are your own personal feelings about it?

I hate it.

Um, I think that it is going to be the downfall of all of us.

Um, I certainly appreciate certain things that it does.

There's certain animations.

It's, it's obviously a wonderful thought starter and things like

that for d- for doing certain tasks, um, and writing and things.

Um, but overall, I hate it.

Um, that said I, uh, it's not going anywhere, and I'm very much a let go

or be dragged person, and I understand that there's things that come up in the

world that you may not agree with, but they're there to stay, and you need to

learn how to use them, and you need how to u- learn how to use them correctly,

um, and safely so that you can keep moving through the world with everyone else.

So, um, that's why I'm embracing it to a certain degree, um, and really

enjoy talking about how to incorporate it into life and work the right way.

And I should let everyone know that I'm not completely shocked that Laura

gave me that answer because we had had a chat before deciding to go ahead with the

interview, and I had really thought Laura was going to say, "I absolutely love it.

It's so fabulous.

We've been utilizing it in all these ways," because I know that

you have done lots of incredible things with AI at work, Laura.

But actually, when you said to me, "I really don't like it at all," I thought,

"That is so refreshing to hear." And I think it will be really reassuring for

people listening as well, because for so many of us, it can be something that

we might be feeling a bit nervous about.

Some people absolutely can't stand the idea of AI at all.

So I just think it's a really reassuring message that even someone who is

using it in a fantastic way at work is actually not 100% in love with it.

No, I'm not.

But having teased everyone now by keep on mentioning the fact

that you have been using it at work, it would be great if you could talk us

through some of the ways that you have been utilizing and embracing AI at work.

So there's a couple of, there's a couple of different ways.

Um, we of course have our AI product, GPGa, which is, um, a great HR agent

for, um, helping with employment laws and compliance globally.

Um, or even just in the United States, if you're in multiple states, um, that can

almost be like 50 different countries.

Um, so just having that im- that, that compliance tool available.

So being, um, the head of HR and working in HR and that being an HR

tool, we've been able to help build that tool, which has been really, um,

exciting and different and something you don't normally get to do.

Um, that interaction with products and all of that, that's been, that's been

a really good experience for everyone.

And then, um, like any other organization, you get the, uh, the AI mandate come

down that everyone needs to start incorporating- AI into their jobs.

And we were lucky in a way because we, our, um, chief information officer

had already started an AI council that was very much focused on policy,

and it was myself, her, some people from IT security, our head of AI, um,

from the product side, and, um, uh, one of our senior people in legal.

And it was very much focused on the policy and the u- you know, the use of

AI, um, making sure that people knew what tools they were allowed to use.

And we were finding that we were having to meet, you know, every other week and

update that policy every month because everything was moving so quickly.

And then when the mandate came down, um, we quickly pivoted into

enablement and, um, started a lot of initiatives to really help the un-

What does this mandate mean and how do I do this?

So we quickly, um, ramped up and made sure that every team had a- an AI, um,

AI lead, so to speak, AI advocate, and that was someone in that department who

was responsible for if someone went out and found a tool, an AI tool that they

wanted to use, they were responsible for bringing it to the council and

having it approved through security.

And we set up a process flow so that that would happen really quickly so that

people weren't waiting, um, because we were really encouraging people to get

out there and experiment so people know how to-- with the process they need

to go through to get to the AI tools.

Um, we started a Slack channel, which is incredibly popular and

active, where people are sharing how they use AI or, um, asking

questions, all those sorts of things.

Um, we've done some learning sessions.

Um, we're lucky being a tech company and having an AI product, we have a lot

of AI experts in-house, so they would join and answer people's questions.

We brought on, um, an enterprise-wide, um, AI tool, um, because we did not

want people using ChatGPT, and people had a reaction to that at first because

it operated a little differently than ChatGPT, and we very quickly

learned it was a prompting issue.

So we've done some classes on prompting so that people understand how to do that.

And we also, um, implemented, um, AI Awesomeness Awards, and people

can nominate themselves or others for, um, ways they're using AI, and

there's certain categories like scale, experimentation, and things like that

where people can, um, win points in the recognition, um, platform that we use.

So we've done a lot around that, and I think we, we did a lot to tamper down

the fear around it, um, by doing it this way, and it's almost worked to the

point where it's almost worked a little too well and now we're a little worried

about shadow AI and too many people doing too many things in different pockets.

Despite the fact it's pretty contained because we have this council and

we know what people are doing, it's still… It's we're finding the more

sophisticated people are becoming with their asks, the more We might

be taking it a little too far.

We need to do that in a more controlled way as well, the

more sophisticated AI rollouts.

Oh, it's so interesting.

There are just so many different things that you've been doing.

It's brilliant to hear because it sounds like as a company, you've

really thrown yourself into trying to adopt AI in the best possible way.

Gosh, there are so many things I can ask you following on from

what you just shared with us.

I suppose of all of the things that you've mentioned, which do you

think has had the biggest impact?

And for anyone listening who may not really be very far along with

their own AI journey within their workplace, I guess I'm thinking what's

that really helpful starting point?

So that could be two different questions actually.

Which thing do you think's had the biggest impact, and what would your advice be for

a really good starting point for people?

I think it's a combination of that Slack channel

and the awards, because that's really bringing energy to it in a positive way,

and I think that's really important.

Um, I think my advice would be you wanna…

The way you approach it, you need to approach it in a way that doesn't make

the fear worse and it, the, it, that people have about AI and job loss and

things like that, and make it be about empowering them to be more effective in

their jobs and free up their own time, versus finding efficiencies to cut back.

Um, also I think that, um, a lot of people would come up to me and say

that, "Well, we are not a tech company.

We don't have anybody who is an expert on AI." And so my advice would be

there, if even if you're not a tech company, there are people in your

organization who do love AI and are curious about AI and in their personal

lives, they're really out there playing with it and experimenting with it.

Find those people in your organization, your curious people, um, your learning

agile people, and really bring them along to be those champions for it

throughout the organization, and that can get you going in the right direction.

It makes such a difference, doesn't it?

Because I know that when it comes to any sort of change, and especially

when you're adopting any sort of new technology, you're always going to have

people who are super excited, I think they're called the early adopters,

who can't wait to get their hands on it and start tinkering around.

And then everyone else kind of follows along at slightly different stages

with some people thinking, "I just don't want to know at all." So I can

see that that's really helpful advice to identify who those early adopters

are and really have them support everybody else in the organization.

You just touched on something that is so important and that I know loads

of us are worrying about in one way or another, and that is job loss.

Because of course, if we're all adopting AI and we're all getting brilliant at

it and we are creating efficiencies for the organization that we work in, what

does that actually mean for people's jobs and maybe even our own jobs?

So I know you've touched on this a little bit, but it would be great to hear even

more maybe your advice around this.

Yeah, I think it's really important, again, to embrace

it no matter how you feel about it and, and learn how to use it smartly.

Um, so much of it falls on organizations to create the psychological safety.

You know, there's some people who even despite an org-wide mandate to use

it feel like it's cheating and they feel embarrassed that they used AI

for something and they try to hide it.

So y- you know, you don't wanna set up an environment for that.

So people really need to, um feel confident that they

can go out, they can use it.

Um, how can it make you better versus how can it replace you?

How can it make your work higher caliber, um, help you think about things

maybe that you didn't think of, let you do it quicker, um, and maybe free

up a little bit of time so that you can maybe focus on some things that

you've just haven't had time to get to.

Um, the, the manual tasks that might be able to be, um, taken over by automation

so that you can do more high-value things.

I think, I think that's really the way to l- to look at it.

Um, and I, I don't know how much time it's… Unless you're talking about pure

automation of manual tasks, I don't know how much, and very, at a very basic level.

I don't know how ac- how much time it's actually freeing up for people because

while it's… I mean, I've worked on, I've, I use it all the time working on

presentations or communications, employee investigations, all sorts of things.

I don't know that it's going any quicker because there's a new set

of things that you have to do.

So if you're working with it to generate a presentation, you, you're… It's

almost like handing it off to a low-level employee to say, "Here's this document.

I need to create a presentation for it. Go out and create that presentation."

And they're very junior, and they don't fully understand the full context of it,

and then you get it back, and then you have to be tweaking it and editing it.

Um, so y- you're still spending a lot of time on it.

It's just in a, it's just in different, it's just in different ways.

Um, so I think And I think that's driving some of the disconnect between executives

and what they think is happening with AI and how much efficiency is being gained

and what people are actually feeling.

Um, because there is so much, there's so much of a check and

balance that needs to happen.

There needs to be editing, and then you have people who maybe aren't using

discernment when they're using it.

It's spitting out something for them, they're giving it over to

somebody else, and then that person has to spend all their time fixing

it because the other person wasn't really being mindful of how they were

using the AI and doing those checks.

So it's, it… I don't think it's, it's not freeing people up the way

executives think it's freeing people up.

Oh, that's fascinating because that sounds very much then

that you feel there is a disconnect between maybe what the senior leadership

team believes is happening with AI and what's actually happening.

Could you just tell us a tiny bit more about that?

Like, what gives you that impression?

Yeah.

I've been doing a bunch of research on that lately, um, and found

many, many articles out there.

There is a huge disconnect, um, between what executives in the C-suite

think is happening and what employees are experiencing, and it's, um, you

know, they're calling it executive delusion, I think i- is, is what I've

seen in, in several of the articles.

And, you know, they hear about these things, "Oh, they're using

AI. Oh, they're using AI," and they just assume that means that, oh,

it's, it's, it's fully automated.

And some of the things driving that disconnect are when you have high

performers who are out there and they're eager and they dive in and

they start using a new tool for something, if it is in fact freeing

them up and getting things done faster, they're just going to do more.

They're not going to… If they're someone who works, you know, 12

hours a day, they're not gonna stop working 12 hours a day.

They're just gonna be able to do more in that 12 hours.

So they're not necessarily feeling a relief from it.

Um, then there's also the, what I mentioned about people who may be using

it and not checking the work and then turning it in, and then you've gotta

go back and you've gotta fix it, and it's actually causing them more work.

Um, in some cases, people feel it's slowing them down because they're

learning to work in a new way.

And when you're learning to work in a new way, it's not, not always faster.

Um, and- I think there's an, there's an overestimation of the accuracy

of a lot of what's out there, and people, um, are really needing to

do a lot of rework or, or auditing the AI and using that discernment.

I've, I've been seeing out there that the number one skill that people need

now is what they're calling taste, which is that discernment, which is the

ability to decide if the infor- what-- if the information you're getting from

the AI is correct, useful, how to parse it out and present it in, in the right

way and not just take it as it is.

Um, there was even a story a month or so ago that I saw.

There was a company that was trying to, you know, really ramp up the AI usage in

the organization, and they, they spent, you know, all this money creating an

internal… building their own internal AI with all the company's data and

information, and people weren't using it.

So then they, you know, they did a harder mandate, use it at least 20 minutes a day.

So people started using it, and they started getting used to it, and they were

like, "Oh, this is great." And they were getting their numbers for it, and they

were getting all this information from it.

And then after about a month, they realized that all of the sales and

revenue data that was coming out of their own internal system was wrong.

Yeah.

Slightly worrying.

So you've got, y- th- that human oversight

is really, really important.

And, um, I just, I, I, I don't… And I think that a lot of executives

just say, "Oh, use AI," and they, they don't know what that means.

And it, to them, it's bringing on tools and bolting it onto existing processes and

bolting it onto existing ways of working, and that's not the right way to do it.

That doesn't really solve anything.

You wanna find value in value, not just in throwing the things on, and you

really need to take a step back and think through how work is getting done and

where can AI actually add value and help versus doing it for the sake of doing it.

For anyone who's listening and thinking, "Oh, maybe

I, I don't really need to be worrying about this whole AI thing then.

It sounds like it's all going to be a complete disaster," I think we need

to give them a, a, a ray of hope that it can be useful and, uh especially

if you are using it with discernment.

It would be brilliant to hear where you have adopted it so much as an

organisation, and it sounds like you've put great guardrails in place, and

you've put brilliant things in place to help train people, get them excited

about it, experimenting with it.

What are some of the wins that you've seen from using AI?

So we've heard about some of the things to watch out for and lots of the things

that can go wrong, but how has the organisation benefited from using AI?

We've seen a lot of huge benefits.

Um, you know, as, as an internal HR team, we've been using our

own product more and more.

Um, and it's allowed us to bother our friends in legal far less

because we're able to use Gia to answer uh, most of our questions

around legal, um, employment things.

Um, so we're seeing it there, and we're even gonna expand on that pilot

very soon, so that's very exciting.

Um, one of the big things we've seen is, um, we use Gemini and people creating

gems, um, to do some minor workflows, and it's become so effective that we're now in

the process of making sure that there's, like, a library of gems that people have

created because other people can use those gems to solve for similar work in

their own area or even the same work.

Um, so we're s- we're seeing a lot of A lot of benefits from that.

We've seen some increased efficiencies with, um, engineering a- and things,

um, with our, with our existing team, um, use- using AI to help them.

My benefits team has done some really cool things, um, automating or, or

at least coming up with concepts to help the product team build that

into our products for our customers.

So, um, there's certainly, um, from an automation standpoint, it's, it-

it, there are things that are f- that are phenomenal that, that it can do.

Um, and I think it's, it's just using that discernment and, and, and that

human oversight, and it's, it- the way I would think about it is you wouldn't

bring a bunch of entry-level workers in and hand it over to them all the most

important things and not supervise them.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

It's the same thing.

And I'm sure for anyone who has been using AI at all in any part of

their work, they'll completely be able to relate to what you're saying there

about needing to have that oversight.

Gosh, even I thought, "Oh, I wonder if ChatGPT can help me speed up

with writing the scripts for the solo episodes of the podcast."

And, uh, oh my goodness, I think it ended up taking me about three times as long

because I kept just saying, "No, that's not right. No, I wouldn't say it like

that. No, I don't like that idea." And in the end I just scrapped the whole thing

and went went back to the drawing board.

And-

I've gotten in several fights with it where, and th- then that's

when I step away and, and, and I say, "Okay, I'm fighting with a robot now.

This is not, this, this, this is not good." But that's, that, that's

true though. It can, it can wind up taking longer and you really do need

to… It needs to get to know you and it needs to understand your tone so

that you can say to it, "Okay, you know that's not how I would say it.

Like, use m- uh, make sure it sounds like me."

Um, and once you've used it enough, they, they get, they get much better.

Oh, definitely.

'Cause there are other ways that I've used it that's been incredibly helpful.

Like I was working on a brochure and that's something that I always find

really difficult to put together and it, I found it incredibly helpful for

condensing down my waffle because I have definitely got a tendency to talk

a lot, hence having a podcast probably.

Being able to condense it down into something that's sort of, yeah, far more

compact and going to work in a brochure.

Yeah.

But coming back- I do

that for a lot, like please make this more concise.

Yes, absolutely.

For u- for us people who are verbose I think and can talk

a lot it can be helpful.

Coming back to what you were saying about Gems.

I'm not a Gemini user.

I think lots of us have got our own- AI tools that we've got very comfortable

using, and of course, some organizations will dictate to everyone that they

can only use one of the platforms.

So for anyone who isn't using Gemini, and they won't be familiar with what a Gem is,

can you just explain to us what a Gem is?

I will do my best.

I, uh, am not the most savvy user.

I, I am Gen X, but I approach AI, I say very much like a Boomer.

Like, I am only, like, slightly be- above someone who uses

it, like, a, a G- like Google.

Like, I'm not super great at it.

Um, and I haven't used Gems in a sophisticated way, but they

are standing things that you can create and that you can run.

Um, and, you know, you can tell it to evaluate and do this sh-

do X, Y, Z, and, and it will.

Um, and so then when you just run the Gem, so every single time you're doing

something, if it's something you use AI for over and over again, you're not having

to re-explain what you want it to do.

Um, it's sort of like a macro, I guess would maybe…

Like an, if you're, if you're an Excel user and you would build a

macro to do, to complete actions.

Um, there's another cool way to use them, and that I use them, is I have

set up a Gem to be the persona of my COO, my CFO, and my CEO, and one

that is my COO and CFO combined, because I do a lot with them together.

And so if I'm doing a communication or a presentation or something for them,

I pull up that Gem, and I've put in all of their, all of, like, the pertinent

things about them so that it can review the information or create the information

for me with that person in mind.

And then that saves me from every time having to describe

the person that it's for.

Um, and it is spot on.

Like, the questions that it gives me, they'll say, "Well, he's gonna

be worried mostly about this, and this is the…" And I'm like, "Yep.

That's exactly what he's gonna say." Like, it's, it's really, it's really funny.

Ooh, I absolutely love that idea.

What a brilliant plan.

I… That is something that I think I'm gonna have to try, and I'm gonna

encourage everyone else to try as well.

Although, I have to say, for anyone listening or watching, just be

really careful when you're putting information into an AI tool.

Make sure that you're using one that is approved by the organization and isn't

gonna be going out into the wider world.

I'm sure that, um, however you may be describing your own CEO or COO or

whoever it is, that you're putting all the information about them in

there, you probably don't want that sitting out in the public domain.

Yeah, and we… That's one of the reasons that we moved

to having an approved AI in-house that isn't using our data anywhere.

Um, we had people, very senior-level people- Pasting confident- em-

emails with confidential information into ChatGPT, not realizing.

They'll be like, "Oh, it goes away." No, nothing goes on the- away.

The internet is forever.

Like, you can't, you c- now even if it deletes in the

moment, it's still somewhere.

Um, so that's one of the reasons, it was security.

Um, and, and that's the most important thing, and I think that there's… And

this sounds corny, but I do believe that what we do for people at work and

their experiences at work do inform and should hopefully enhance their

personal lives in one way or another.

And I think this is a really good example of that, where what they're learning

about using AI at work, if you're doing it right, and the- and learning about

the security a- and, and the things that you need to watch out for, that really

helps people in their personal lives.

Because it's scary what can happen with your personal information out

there, and p- people don't realize it.

So if they're learning about it at work, then they can hopefully use that

to keep themselves safer every day.

It's really nice to think that what we're encouraging at work is gonna

help people with their lives, full stop.

So thank you for sharing that, Laura.

And sadly, I can't believe how quickly this time has whizzed by.

We are coming towards the end of our time together today.

So I would love to ask you a question that I try to ask every guest who comes

on the show, and that is, do you have a book recommendation or a resource

for us that you'd like to share?

This is probably gonna sound like a very cheesy

recommendation, um, but I really do love the book Dare to Lead By Brene

Brown, um, because it focuses so much on authenticity, and I think that that

is so important in the world today, and organizations have become so inauthentic.

Everything's corporate speak, everything's performative, and people

are exhausted by it, and especially when… as it relates to AI.

Um, I think that that's, it- that's magnifying it and making that, that

lack of authenticity even worse.

And, um, just that reminder that what we desperately need now

in the world is authenticity.

Um, so that, that would be the book that I would pick.

Well, that is one of my favorite books, so I can wholeheartedly

second that recommendation.

For anyone who hasn't read it, oh, it's brilliant.

I even have the audiobook and the paperback book because Brene has a lovely

reading voice as well, and she actually reads the book aloud for the audiobook.

So if you're not much of a paperback reader, then I'd definitely say

it is well worth listening to the audio version of the book.

So it's also a nice hopeful point, the fact that so much of what we can bring

to work is about who we are and the way that we do that, and being authentic.

And although I do think that AI can be absolutely fantastic, and

it can make our lives easier, and it can help make our work better if

we're using it carefully, nothing…

It certainly can't replace us and, and who we are and the impact that we can have.

So hopefully that's a really nice, positive, encouraging note to be

ending today's chat on, Laura.

All that leaves me to say is a huge thank you for your time today.

It has been wonderful chatting all things AI with you.

You're welcome.

Thank you.

I had a great time.

It was lovely speaking with you.

I hope you really enjoyed meeting Laura, and that perhaps you're

gonna take away and put into action some of the things that she talked about.

There were a few things that really stood out to me from speaking with her.

Firstly, that it is completely okay to have mixed feelings about AI.

You don't have to love it to use it well.

And actually hearing Laura say that she doesn't love it whilst also playing

such a key role in how it's being used in her organization, I thought that

was incredibly reassuring for us all.

Secondly, the importance of how AI is introduced and talked about at work.

The idea of really creating that all-important psychological safety,

encouraging experimentation, and involving people in the process, rather than

making it feel like something that's being done to them, can all make such

a big difference And I also thought her point about discernment or taste, as she

described it, was such an important one.

AI can be incredibly helpful, but only if we're applying our

own judgment, experience, and critical thinking alongside it.

For me, one of the biggest takeaways from this conversation is that

AI isn't about replacing us.

It's about how we choose to work with it, and that might

look different for all of us.

So if you've been feeling a bit unsure or even a bit resistant to it, I hope

this episode has helped you feel more confident about taking that next small

step, whatever that looks like for you.

As always, thank you so much for listening to HR Coffee Time.

If you found this episode helpful and you think other people might do too,

it would be wonderful if you could share it with a colleague or a friend

who you think might like it as well.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your support if you do do that.

Having people share the show makes such a difference.

Thank you so much, and I'm looking forward to being back again with the

next episode for you in two weeks' time.

Take care in the meantime.