137 | How to recognise and break free from the lies we tell ourselves at work, with Emma Djemil

Hello and welcome back to HR Coffee Time. It's wonderful to have you listening today. I'm your host, Fay Wallis, a career and executive coach with a background in HR, and I've made HR Coffee Time especially for you to help you have a successful and fulfilling HR or people career. There are lies we tell ourselves at work, but we don't realise it.

To us, they feel like cold, hard facts. It's only when we're encouraged to challenge them that we can start to see that maybe they aren't facts at all, and that in fact they could be holding us back at work. So, if you've ever told yourself that you don't deserve a promotion, that you can't apply for a different role because you're not qualified enough, That you don't deserve to have time off because everyone at work needs you.

That you need to prioritize your colleagues at work above yourself. That you need to make sure things are perfect or it means you're not good enough. That you need to prove your worth to be seen as credible at work. Or that you need to be available all the time, or that means you're not an effective HR or people professional.

I hope this episode will help you recognize and start to challenge these little lies, so that you can break free from them. And I'm delighted that I'll be able to introduce you to the utterly fabulous Emma Djemil, who is going to help us all break free from these little lies. Emma describes herself as the person you go to when you need to get out of your own head and be consistently courageous in pursuit of what you really want.

She makes it her business to celebrate you until you believe you're as awesome as she knows you are. and helps you leave behind any unhelpful thoughts, behaviours or feelings that are going to get in the way of your biggest impact. She's the founder of the HR Club and the HR Big Meet. Emma is focused on helping women in HR have their biggest impact in the world sustainably.

It has been amazing to see so many of you sharing photos and videos of your planners on LinkedIn and in the HR Ninjas Facebook group. I love hearing how much you're enjoying using them. Thank you so much. I'd love to give a special shout out to Wendy, Louise, Lorna, Tracy, Ashley, Liam, Kirsteen and Helen.

Your support means so much to me and it's fantastic to see from your posts. that the planner is making a real difference in your work lives. I really need to start keeping a list of everyone who I see posting about the planner. I hate the idea that, because I haven't been keeping a list up until now, that I might have missed some people out from that thank you.

So if I haven't mentioned your name but you have been helping to spread the word about the planner, please know that I do truly appreciate your support. But now I better move on from talking about the planner and let's crack on with the main part of the show and go ahead and meet Emma. I hope you're going to enjoy learning from her as much as I did, welcome to the show, Emma. It is so wonderful to have you here.

Oh, thank you so much. I'm really looking forward to it. Really looking forward to chatting.

Well, I'm very happy to hear that. I could always chat to you all day. In fact, for everyone listening, poor Emma's just had me chatting at her for nearly 15 minutes before we started recording.

I had to say to her, we better stop talking because we'll never get the interview done otherwise.

It's a sign of a good thing, Fay, I think. And I felt it was a mutual conversation, so you're fine.

Oh, wonderful. I'm very relieved to hear that. But so bringing us into the interview, instead of me getting carried away with all the chatting, I thought that the topic that we're going to talk about today It's just such a compelling one.

When I met Emma and we were talking about the podcast, she had lots of different suggestions of what we could focus on and they were all fantastic. I mean, I could have Emma on the show for a whole mini series, I think, but the one that really leapt out at me was this idea of lies we might be telling ourselves.

So Emma, I would love to know what made you so interested in this idea of lies that we could be telling ourselves.

It's from experience, Fay. So I've worked in HR my whole career. And, um, I know that I had a lot of things that I thought were absolute fact and truth in, in my, in my thinking. And actually through going on my own kind of personal development journey, realize a lot of that isn't really that true.

And now as a coach and working with women in HR in the way that I do, like there are kind of some recurring things that come out of it. And what I find is interesting is that people always come to me for coaching because for, for like a reason, say, I want more confidence or I want more impact when I'm talking to the senior team or whatever.

And then when you actually dig into it, there are some things that they think are true. That actually aren't really true. So yeah, I think there are a load of things that we're potentially telling ourselves are true and actually they're not, which might be confronting for some people listening.

Well, I can imagine people listening or thinking like what, like what, what are these lies I might be telling myself?

So that's going to be my next question to you, Emma, if there are some in particular that you see cropping up. all the time. I'm guessing we'll all have different lies that we tell ourselves, but what are the ones that you think are most common?

Oh where do I start, Fay? Which one do I choose first of all? I will go with. The first one I'll go with, is the concept that when we're in HR to be valuable, we have to be available all the time. Dun, dun, dun. So I, um, I think when you start out in HR, you kind of, you, you, you are reactive because it certainly is a generalist, certainly my experience as a generalist, people do, things happen and people come to you and you're like, Oh, I have to respond.

It is a reactive kind of process. And as we kind of move through our career in HR and we become managers and we become, you know, more, more senior, we are actually required to be less reactive. We need to step into a more planning kind of the whole strategic thing. And yet, We're kind of battling this.

We've also got this mindset that we have to prove ourselves and prove our worth. So the way that we think that we can do that is, well, if I'm always available for the, for the people who need me, then of course I'm going to have value and I'm going to have worth in the organization. That's not true, um, but I think we get stuck in, in that, um, mentality of thinking that it is.

Just my hot take. What do you think?

I was just thinking if people could see us on video right now, they'd see me just nodding along and smiling and completely agreeing with, with what you say, Emma. Gosh, so much of it resonates. I think for me personally, and for so many people I know who work in HR, there is this sense of extreme busyness a lot of the time and a real concern about never feeling like you can get to the strategic stuff that you can get to the projects that are going to have a real difference, make a massive impact in the organization and hopefully for your career as well.

And that's just because of the fact that you feel you've got to be available all the time. So I think it's really interesting to hear you flag that one. And then the other one I'd love to ask you more about is this one that we feel we have to prove ourselves and prove our worth and that that's so intrinsically linked with the availability.

Could you just tell us a little bit more about this idea of feeling we have to prove ourselves and like how that shows up and how it might not always be helpful.

Yeah. I mean, it's such a constant narrative, isn't it? For HR, you can't, you really, you can't read, you know, like an HR trade magazine or an article online

or whatever with our like HR needs to show blah, blah, blah. And I'll, you know, prove our worth and all just, it's just a constant narrative for HR to have a seat at the table. It must do this. Like what, what is this elusive seat at the table that we're all striving for? Like, why are we pushing so hard for people to understand the worth of their people?

I just think there's a, there's a different way of us kind of engaging with our profession, which is just to be, just to own it, rather than having to prove it, just to own it and be like, I am the people expert, I'm the expert at the, like your biggest asset in your organization. I'm the one who knows what they're talking about, rather than may I just prove myself and prove these things and all this, like what, why, you know, I just.

I really struggle with it. I, you know, 20 years I've been doing HR is a constant narrative. HR needs to prove it, gets a seat on the table. And I'm like, well, surely can we not just do it a different way? Let's just try it a different way, which might just be completely owning. Owning our expertise and our brilliance as the people, professionals. The people that I know in HR are studying all the time we are reading, you know, keeping up to date.

We're doing case law updates. We are looking for best practice. We are constantly mastering our craft. And yet we are perceiving that we have to prove that to other people. I just, It's, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm over it, Fay.

As you're saying that, I can picture someone I used to work with and whenever they walked into a room, you just believed in them. In fact, they used to get asked to be taken along to meetings all of the time because they just projected this complete confidence and like, I completely deserve to be here.

I'm completely credible. He never had to do very much to, or it seemed to me he didn't have to do very much to really prove that he was credible. It's really interesting, isn't it, to think about how much of an impact the way that we show up and, and hold ourselves or walk around the room or, talk when we're on a video call, just how much sway that can actually have above having to say, and here's all the evidence and this is why it's really important.

And, but just owning that space and projecting that confidence. It can be so powerful.

I think so. I think it just changes our whole physiology though, as well, like you're saying, if you can change your, your stance and your stature, like the body's effect on how you come across other people is, is immense.

And I think if, yeah, if we had the mindset of actually I'm completely the one who knows the most in this room about the people stuff, which makes me the expert. That's like the definition of expert. You don't need to be know the most in the world about the thing you're talking about. Just, do you know the most in the room?

100%. I guarantee that the people listening to this are the experts in their field. And just to own that, as you know, to like put on your suit of expert as you walk into the room and be like, yeah, this is how I'm showing up. So like, you're going to listen to me. I just think that has so much potential. I just don't think we have to prove our worth

to, to anyone, let alone when there are such glaring issues with leadership across like the globe. Like, I just, I just think we can get over it.

Oh, fantastic. Oh, well, hopefully that's given us, well, I know it's given me a boost. I'm picturing myself putting on this sort of special cloak or, or suit of confidence.

Yeah. Thinking about these lies though. So we've touched on two, it would be I think incredibly helpful if you have any tips on how people can recognize when they're telling themselves a lie like this. So maybe there are lots of people listening who are thinking, actually, do you know what? I'm, I'm fine. I know, I know I haven't got to be available all the time.

I'm quite good at putting boundaries in place. And I think that I am confident when I walk into a room and I don't feel I have to prove myself, but I wonder if there are some other lies I could be telling myself, like, how, how can they spot what those lies might be?

Yeah, I mean, first up, lucky them if that's not relating to any of these, like, good for you.

I think good indication is when you're feeling disempowered. So anytime that you like want to do something, and you hesitate, and it's a hesitation because of some kind of criticism. So whether it's, oh, I couldn't do that, I couldn't get that promotion, for example, because I haven't got experience or I couldn't go for that job because I haven't got the qualification or anytime there is some, something that feels like a criticism or, or something, or you're telling yourself that you're lacking something, it's likely that underneath that there is

some kind of unhelpful belief. Now, whether it's a lie or not is, is I guess the next stage in kind of dealing with those thoughts, but to start off with, it's like, yeah, am I feeling disempowered? Am I feeling like I can't go and do the thing that I want? Am I feeling like I can't say the thing that I want to do or pursue the career move I want to?

Or yeah, set a boundary, anything like that, where you're, um, yeah, holding yourself back and it's then working out why, why you are holding yourself back.

Mmmm. Oh gosh. Yeah. So you're making me think of lots of other things. It's also making me think of, um, when we can be really self critical as well. I think I should be better at this or I should have more of a handle on this.

And yeah, I think. To me, that's one thing I, I can really struggle with is putting a lot of pressure on myself and recognizing actually there isn't a rule book that exists out there that is telling us all what we should and shouldn't be doing. Often it's just this self imposed pressure that isn't always helpful and they can be more little lies that you're telling yourself.

Yeah, definitely. That's such a good point. Anytime that you're shoulding yourself is, is a really key indicator, I think, of. the potential that there is an untruth at, at play, because we tend to be, we tend to be more critical on ourselves than we ever would to anyone else be much harder on ourselves than we ever would to anyone else.

And. Underneath that normally there'll be a superficial, I'm not good enough for that job because I haven't got the qualification. That's your like superficial, like untruth and then it's, and then it's about exploring that further to say, well, and, and questioning it. So if you're hearing yourself say, oh, I should be better at that, or I should have this before I can go and do X, Y, and Z.

The next question is like, well, why is that the truth? And then exploring, you know, why. Why is it important to me that I have the qualification and then why is that important, whatever I come up with and then nine times out of 10, when you actually dig right down to the bottom, there will be some kind of fear about being visible or being good enough or yeah, or having worth in the world that will always be at the root of the superficial untruth, if you like. So yeah, the first step is noticing yourself getting held back and then just interrogating it like loads and working out what's really going on underneath that.

You're making me think of, um, the book, feel the fear and do it anyway. I read it ages ago. Have you read that one?

Yes. Yes.

And, um, I always think it's really annoying. Isn't it? If people start waxing lyrical about a book and you're thinking, but I haven't read that one, Fay. So, uh, and I realized lots of people listening might not have read it. So I'll just quickly explain that in the book, she says that ultimately there's this often deep rooted fear that we can't handle things.

So when you were just talking about things like fear of failure or fear of not being good enough, the idea is that actually what's really holding us back is that if something goes wrong, we're not going to be able to handle it, like if our fears. become a reality. We think we can't handle it. And actually she really challenges that in the book and says, you can actually, if you say to yourself, what is the worst thing that's going to happen?

If I think of the availability thing you were talking about. So, um, if I said to everyone actually on a Thursday afternoon, that's when I focus on my strategic work. You can't interrupt me. I'm booking a meeting with myself. I'm, I'm not available. The fear is, oh my goodness, people are going to think I'm incompetent and I'm going to lose my job.

And you can really challenge that and say, really, is that really going to happen? And actually, if someone turned around and said, I cannot believe you've not made yourself available to me. Well, could you handle that?

And you think,

yeah, I probably could actually.

Exactly what I was about to say. And also how unreasonable are they for them to, to be like, we have to be available.

Like, who are you? Like, that flow there of what you talked about of, of, of, I can't set the boundary around my time. Because then someone will have a perception of me and it's likely to be negative. And then if they have that perception, it's likely that I'll lose my job. And then if I lose my job, I'm, a lot of the people I work with are the main earners.

If I lose my job, then we're going to not have enough money to pay our mortgage. And if we can't pay our mortgage, we're going to lose our house. And if we lose our house, then we're going to be homeless. Like that is genuinely the flow that so many people follow when you start interrogating just the simple behavioral thing of, can I set a boundary or not?

Can I manage my time or not? Now, when you say that out loud. If I, like, like you've just said, managing my time means I'm going to lose my house. I'm going to be homeless, saying it out loud. People are like, well, that's ridiculous. Why am I, why am I doing that? But this is the, it's the, it's the, it's the, the untruth up here.

Of, I can't manage, I can't set a boundary. I have to be available all the time. It's actually being driven by a deep rooted fear that you're going to lose your stability and your security in your home. So when you, once you understand, and I've done, and followed that trail, then you can be like, Oh, wow.

Of course I'm not setting boundaries because if I, if I think I'm going to lose my home, that's, that's a big tragedy for anyone, right? So the mistruth up here of, I can't set my boundary. Once you understand it, then you can just go, Oh, okay. I can set a boundary now because actually having worked out what the real fear is, I'm probably not really going to lose my home.

There are a lot of steps for, for, before I lose my home, like. From just setting that boundary, it's really good to follow that process and to say out loud the things that you might not even realize are actually happening for you.

It is so weird how the narrative in our heads, like what we say to ourselves in our mind seem to make complete sense and be totally valid when it's in our mind.

But when we say them out loud like you just did and kind of followed that whole chain, that's when we can recognize . Actually, actually, no. Like, it is okay for me not to be available all the time. It is okay for me to not have to keep proving my worth all the time. It is okay for me to stop putting all of these shoulds on myself.

It was really helpful, Emma, to have you talk us through it in that step by step process. Thank you so much. And of course, I think that's where there is a real benefit in coaching because it's so helpful to have someone else hold your hand and, and take you through that process. That can be a little bit harder sometimes to do it on your own. But for anyone who's listening, who is really excited about this idea of, Oh, I think I can start to feel more empowered and tackle some of the untruths or lies I might be telling myself.

What would your advice to them if they want to try and do that on their own to begin with?

Yeah, I would say it's always harder on your own. So most people will get stuck at the kind of, I can't set this boundary because they're going to perceive that I can't do my job. That lie is where, where most of us kind of get stuck.

But you can, of course, question yourself in the way that I've kind of, talked about, which is, um, notice the time that you're feeling disempowered or you're not feeling able to do something. And you can do this kind of at the end of the day, thinking about where did I feel disempowered over the day?

And then question, well, why did I not set that boundary? Let's, let's keep with the time one. Why did I not manage their expectations about when I was available for them? And to get your answer. And then why is it important to me that people perceive I do a good job and then get your answer and then ask from that, well, why is that important and do that five times?

And by the time you, you've done that, you, you likely got to the kind of root cause of it. And then when you've worked that through yourself, normally you'll probably go, well, that's ridiculous. I'm just going to set my boundary, but if not. You can then start looking for alternative evidence. So even at the top level of people perceiving I'm not doing a good job, when I set a boundary, you can say, you can, you can question yourself, well, actually do people perceive that I'm not doing a good job?

And like, look for some alternative evidence. Evidence to show, actually, no, I am doing a good job or, you know, whatever it is that is the challenge in your head, look for the alternative evidence somehow and keep a log because again, your brain thinks it's really cool to keep telling you of all the ways that, um, like you're failing.

Cause it thinks that's your key to survival is just to like. Just keep telling you stuff that you're really bad at so you can get better all the time. Um, so just try and look for, for different, for, for, for the alternative, for the different viewpoint and the positives and the times that you've had success and the times you've delivered value, if that's what's important to you.

So you have a log of it. Anytime your brain's doing that stuff to you, you can go back to it and be like, Oh, actually, no, let's like, take it down a notch. I can, I can chill in this moment. Um, and the more you practice doing that, the more you understand where you're getting tripped up, the quicker it is for you then to turn it around to kind of in the moment because you just get more practice at it.

I believe in that, well, everything that you've just said, Emma, but the log idea is so incredibly powerful. In the Essential HR Planner, I have a section at the back, which is called praise pages, where I encourage everybody throughout the year, any positive feedback they get, any nice thing that they're told, whether it's their boss saying, Oh, well done, that was a great job.

Or they get an email from a colleague who's really appreciative or they, run some sort of fabulous initiative and there's a photo of it and stick it in there. Just collate all of that positive feedback all those indicators you're doing great work and put them in the praise pages and I try and do this myself as well.

You, you've You have been doing good work. It's all going to be okay. There is something so reassuring about having it there. But if you haven't got it there, it is quite easy to start spiraling in those moments sometimes.

Definitely. And there's a couple of things, if I may pick up on from that one, what I would add to other people's feedback is to also notice the times when you feel proud as well, because I think we shouldn't have to rely on external validation to feel validated as individuals.

We should, we should be connected to what makes us proud, what makes us feel purposeful, what makes us feel meaningful, and that doesn't have to rely on other people telling us so. So I'd also add like into the praise pages, which I love as an idea that the, the notion that anytime you feel proud, put that in there as well.

And the other thing is around, like, you've just talked about having a wobble. I have wobbles too. Um, and I think, What we're aiming for is not to not have wobbles because I think that that is not achievable just because of, like I say, our brain likes to do that stuff to us. It's just how we're wired that. The aim is to get, come back more quickly from the wobbles.

So to, to recognize the kind of default model, model of the world that you have that might be leading to that, um, that wobble and then having the tools, having the, you know what you need to, to recover more quickly from that.

It's so funny Emma, every year when I have just finished working on The Essential HR Planner, I always think , that's it I can't think of any any way I could really improve this or or make it better Oh gosh, I hope everyone won't be disappointed next year when there's nothing to add. Well, you just talking about the fact that it's so important, you can have internal validation as well as that external validation has got me thinking straight away.

There's a section in the planner, which is probably the section I get the most positive feedback about, and it is called end of month review. And at the end of every single month, there's just a set of questions to ask yourself and to note down. And the idea behind that is to help you recognize the progress that you're making, help you stay on top of your goals, help you check in with your wellbeing.

But as you were talking, I thought, actually, I love this idea of having the word proud in there. I haven't really got anything explicitly in there. It's sort of hinted at, but I may have to think about tweaking one of the questions in there for next year or perhaps tweaking those praise pages. So I need to say thank you.

Not only are you being a huge help for everyone listening who may be telling themselves all these lies and untruths that are holding them back, but also thank you for just helping me with, um, with my work. I really appreciate it.

Oh, that's brilliant. I think the, in a profession where we rarely get praise, like we're not, not, we're not often dealing with nice stuff, are we?

It's not like people are going to come and go, thanks so much for making me redundant. To know that you're doing things in a way that feels aligned to you and that you can feel proud even when you were doing the difficult things. You know, that, that ties back into, even if other people don't see your worth, you can still know you have worth by reflecting on, I made a difference.

We'll see, I'll have to file it away so I remember to adjust for the next year.

But that feels, that idea of the internal validation and the being proud of yourself feels like such a nice, positive and impactful way of us wrapping up our talk together, Emma. It means that I have got the question coming up next is the one I try to ask every guest who comes on the show. And I've actually changed this one slightly.

So Emma is the first person to have the new style question thrown at her. So it is, would you like to either share a nonfiction book recommendation? Or what is the one piece of career advice you'd like to give everyone listening today?

Oh, I think I'm going to go with the book, which I now realise my computer is now resting on, but people can't see anyway, can they?

So the book that I'm going to share is called The Fix and it is , the fix overcome the invisible barriers that are holding women back at work. When I read it, it was such again, a validating validating read for me in terms of some of the challenges that I thought as a woman in work were about the fact that I wasn't good enough.

When actually there were, there are some systemic things at play that I think everyone should be educated on because I just think it would lead to a better experience at work for, for everyone. So yeah, the fix, overcome the invisible barriers that are holding women back at work.

That sounds like a fantastic recommendation.

Gosh, we've had some really good book recommendations from guests over the years. I'm so spoilt for choice and everyone listening is so spoilt for choice on what to read next. So I'll make sure that I put a link to that book in the show notes. There is also actually, which I'm terrible at ever talking about.

So it's a good reminder for me to mention it. Now there is actually an article on my website, Bright Sky Career Coaching. If you go to the blog section, there's now a list of every single book that has ever been recommended on the show for anyone who'd really like to have a flick through all of the fabulous choices that are on there.

So thank you again for your time today, Emma, and for just sharing so many fabulous insights and such a great book recommendation. All that leaves me to say now is for anyone listening who'd love to learn more about your work or get in touch with you, what is the best way of them doing that?

Definitely the best way is just to connect with me on LinkedIn, to be honest, I tend to spend probably too much of my time on there to be honest.

Um, but yeah, come over and connect with me on LinkedIn, Emma Djemil. You'll, you'll see the spelling of my surname cause it's a silent D and it gets everyone confused. Um, but yeah, come over and connect with me on there and. I'd send you to my website, but I'm not sure it's what I want to reflect out in the world.

So just LinkedIn, that's the one.

Okay, perfect. And I'll make sure I pop a link to your LinkedIn URL in the show notes as well. So thank you so much, Emma. It has been absolutely fantastic talking to you today, and I really hope to get to catch up with you again soon.

Awesome. Thanks so much, Fay.

That brings us to the end of the episode.

You'll have to let me know if you had Fleetwood Mac song, Sweet Little Lies in your head after listening to it. For some reason, I haven't been able to stop hearing that song after I spoke to Emma. Before I say goodbye though, can I possibly ask you for a small favour? If you have a friend or a colleague who you think would enjoy listening to HR Coffee Time or would find this episode particularly helpful, please can you share it with them and encourage them to give it a try?

Because I would absolutely love to help as many HR and people professionals as I can with this free podcast and I know what a huge difference recommendations can make. Thank you so much and I hope there's at least one little lie you'll be able to stop telling yourself as a result of listening today so that you can have an even happier and more fulfilling career.

Take care and I'm looking forward to being back again soon with the next episode for you.