135 | Why & how to support women experiencing the menopause at work, with Emma Thomas

Hello and welcome back to HR Coffee Time.

It's wonderful to have you listening today.

I'm your host, Faye Wallace, a career and executive coach with a background in HR, and I've made HR coffee time especially for you to help you have a successful and fulfilling HR or people career.

In today's episode, we're tackling a topic that will impact every single one of us in the HR and people profession, and that topic is the menopause.

Whether we personally find ourselves experiencing the menopause or we work alongside colleagues who go through it, it's so important that we properly understand it so that we can create inclusive workplaces where everyone can thrive.

And we're always being told that HR needs to be more data driven.

So I feel incredibly lucky to be able to introduce you to today's guest, Emma Thomas.

Emma was absolutely amazing at sharing facts, figures and resources throughout our interview so that you have everything you need to make a brilliant business case for bringing in more education and support around the menopause in your organisation.

Emma is the founder of managing the Menopause, which provides corporate training, coaching and consultancy.

Her twin passions are coaching and supporting others through the menopause transition, which is also known as perimenopause.

She is also the host of the successful middling along podcast, which has been listed as one of the top 25 podcasts for menopause and midlife by the Latte lounge.

In this episode, she explains what perimenopause and menopause are, some typical symptoms and the impact that they can have.

The business case for supporting employees through menopause legal considerations, including the rise in employment tribunals related to menopause, and practical strategies you can put in place to create a supportive work environment.

So whether you're looking to update your organisation's policies, improve employee wellbeing, or build a stronger business case for menopause support, this episode is packed with invaluable insights straight from an expert in the field.

But before we dive into the episode and meet Emma, I'd just like to take a moment to thank Amy Donnelly.

Amy wrote a lovely review for HR coffee time on Apple Podcasts and she shared a fantastic post on LinkedIn that she tagged me in, which is how come I saw it where she recommended episode 133 from the show, which was called how to deliver brilliant presentations that win over hearts and minds with Emma Sirlin.

Thank you so much Amy.

It is wonderful to know that you've been enjoying HL coffee time and that you liked the episode with Emma Sirlin.

Reviews and recommendations make such a big difference in helping the podcast reach even more people in the HR community.

So I hugely appreciate your support.

And now let's move on to the main part of today's episode and meet Emma Thomas.

I really hope you're going to enjoy learning from her as much as I did.

Welcome to the show, Emma.

It's so lovely to have you here, especially when I know that you've been really poorly.

So it's incredibly lovely of you to still carry on with the interview, even though you've not been feeling very well.

Thank you for having me.

I don't normally sound quite this husky, I have to say, but yeah, well, definitely on the mend.

Well, I'm very pleased to hear that you're on the mend, and it's just fabulous to have you here because this is such an important topic we're covering, and it's one that I've had several listeners get in touch with me to ask if I can cover on the show.

So I'm really grateful for you being here.

And with every topic that we cover on HR coffee time, I think it can be really, really good to start off with a definition.

So, for my very first question, if I could ask you to share a definition of what perimenopause and menopause are and the difference between them, that would be absolutely fantastic.

Absolutely.

Back to basics.

So, to be in menopause, you have to have gone twelve full months with no period.

So for somebody, their period might stop and they might get a period four months later, and then they would have to start counting again from, from that last period.

So your menopause is technically, it's just that one day when you've gone that full twelve months, and perimenopause is the time, the sort of menopause transition, the time leading up to the one that one day.

So really you're only technically in menopause for one day.

You're either perimenopausal so you're leading up to that day, or you're post menopausal and you're after that one day.

So we are talking about perimenopause a lot more now, probably.

If I'd said the word to you sort of six, seven years ago, you would be, what are you talking about?

But it's that, that is the time when typically symptoms are at their most pronounced.

Now, the average age to reach menopause here in the UK and in the US, for example, is 51 years.

But that said, one in 20 will naturally go through menopause early, between 40 and 45 years old.

And for somebody sort of an average length of time that they might be in, perimenopause could be somewhere between four and seven years, typically.

So, you know, if you think of about somebody at the lower end of that age bracket reaching menopause at 40, they could potentially have started symptoms in their sort of early to mid thirties.

And another one or two in every hundred will actually enter menopause under 40.

So we call that premature ovarian insufficiency, or POI for short.

Somebody might also go into menopause because of a sort of surgical menopause.

So removal of their ovaries, typically, or chemical menopause, if they're on drugs to suppress ovulation, treat PMDD, for example, and certain types of cancer treatment.

So it's not as though they're sort of a one size fits all.

And obviously, we're all gloriously individual and will experience this in our own way.

It's so interesting, everything that you've just shared, Emma, but particularly when you said about the fact that maybe seven years ago, we'd all have been wondering what you were talking about if you used the word perimenopause.

I am 46 at the moment and experiencing the perimenopause, and I am so grateful that it is a subject that is talked about much more, because I think I would have had no idea that that's what was happening if it wasn't being so widely talked about.

And for anyone listening who may not be familiar with what the symptoms of perimenopause and menopause are, it would be brilliant if you're happy to talk us through what some of them are.

I know there are absolutely loads, so you might not be able to cover them all off, but perhaps some of them.

Most common ones, yeah, sure.

And actually, the number depends on the source that you look at.

I mean, I think the number typically that people cite is 34.

Most people will have heard of hot flushes, obviously, or hot flashes, as they call them, in the US, but actually, only about 85% of us will get hot flushes.

And sort of night sweats are the nighttime equivalent of that.

Those can obviously be very debilitating, and those are the kind of the primary reason that people might seek help with sort of hormone replacements therapy, for example.

But things like anxiety and depression are incredibly common.

And again, I sort of liken those a little bit to the sort of the red warning light going off on the dashboard of your car.

Something that is quite common in early stages of perimenopause.

Things like heart palpitations, people might not think of as a symptom, but again, quite common.

Again, if you don't realize that, it can be quite distressing.

If you're getting heart palpitations and you don't understand, obviously it can be caused by other things, so it's always worth getting that checked out.

But then some other sort of weird and wonderful things, like itchy ears or noise sensitivity, increases in migraines.

Very common things like a sort of sensation of ants, insects walking on your skin when there's nothing there.

So it's really down to the fact that we have these oestrogen receptors all over our bodies and all over our brains.

And so that's why you get this very sort of broad range of symptoms that, you know, it almost gets to the point where you could pick almost anything and it could be a menopause symptom.

But I think there's more and more research, obviously, being done all the time into the impact of not just estrogen, but progesterone as well, and testosterone.

Been a lot about that in the news over the last year or so.

It's incredible to think just how many symptoms there are.

I hadn't heard of that horrible ant crawling along your skin.

What?

I'm quite grateful I haven't got that one.

One symptom I have got that I had no idea was linked to the perimenopause is hair loss, which has been just horrible, really.

I've ended up having to change my hairstyle completely to try and cover up the fact.

But I guess thinking about hair loss and the feeling of ants crawling along your skin or having hot flushes or hot flashes, although none of it is very pleasant, I know it can have an impact at work.

What do you think the symptoms are that can have the biggest impact at work that we need to be aware of, really?

Well, fortunately, we've now got access to much more research into this that's been done over the last couple of years.

We've obviously talked about hot flushes, hot flashes, and those can be, you know, really quite debilitating in a workplace environment.

But actually looking at a couple of those sort of items of research that have been done.

The top three or the top sort of symptoms that they were focused on in terms of respondents were 79% said they were less able to concentrate, 68% said they were more stressed at work, and 46% said they felt less physically able.

So if they were in a sort of a physical job in particular, that could be really impactful.

And in that same survey, 53% of women were unable to attend work at some point due to their symptoms.

The other survey I'm going to quote from is from a us company us survey called Evernow.

And their top three were inability to focus, brain fog and headaches and migraines, closely followed by issues with fatigue and sleep.

So really you can see that actually, you know something, the sort of the stereotypical hot flushes weren't as impactful in a workplace situation.

You know, we're talking much more about that sort of concentration, focus, confidence, fatigue.

And a lot of those things are interrelated as well.

So if you're not getting a great night's sleep, you're going to be really struggling potentially the next day at work.

If you're struggling and feeling less resilient, your confidence is going to be lower.

So all of these things kind of interact and I think it's really important for employers to understand that.

And, you know, it's not just about the sort of the physical in a workplace situation.

It can actually be much more about the sort of the psychological, the emotional impact of what's going on for somebody.

It's great to have you mention the research.

Thank you for sharing that, Emma, and for anyone listening who wants to take a deep dive into that research, I'll make sure that I pop links to everything that Emma talks about today in the show notes for you so that you can take a deep dive and learn even more about it.

And talking about research, I know that you've got even more that you can share with us, Emma, because everyone listening right now, I can imagine, is thinking, oh, I can really see why this is such an important topic, but it would be great to be able to really show just why it's so important for anyone who works in HR to be aware of it and to help them really to drive awareness and put things in place that are going to support people.

So are you happy to share some of the other research with us as well?

Absolutely.

We've seen from, you know, I've mentioned a couple of studies, there are quite a lot out there, and if anyone wants to get in touch with me afterwards, I'm happy to share some more.

But the research is showing us that somewhere between six and 10% of women are leaving work because they're not feeling supported in the workplace.

Obviously, that's an expense to an organisation, but by supporting people who are going through this, we can generally improve productivity, engagement, retention, particularly, you know, thinking about senior female employees, people who've got all of that organisational knowledge and they're doing great things in the company, quite often in terms of mentoring colleagues and sort of running employee resource groups, for example.

You know, we want those women to be staying, to be progressing through the organisation.

There's also, obviously risk to the business if there's discrimination.

There's been a rise in employment tribunals linked to menopause and quite a few high profile cases that have made the national newspapers, of course.

So one of the other reports from this year is the Deloitte women at work report.

And in that particular one, they cite 39% of respondents who had experienced pain and discomfort due to menopause and said they worked through it.

And again, sort of in this year's report, fewer women felt comfortable discussing their health challenges with their managers than.

Than last year, and also more saying that their career had been negatively impacted by discussing things like this at work in the past.

And that's a real concern.

You know, we want to be building organisational cultures where people can talk openly about this with their line managers, with their HR department.

That CIPD survey that I mentioned before said that about three quarters of women experiencing symptoms were struggling to cope at work.

And generally, I think, as we're getting, I love this term, elder millennials moving into the perimenopause phase.

You know, certainly they're expecting more from organisations and making decisions on where they want to work or whether they want to stay accordingly.

So certainly more and more companies are kind of building this into their wellbeing strategy and, you know, looking comprehensively across policies to make sure that things like this are included.

Lots of companies are setting up employee resource groups, for example, around menopause.

And I think we'll probably come back to some of the other things that companies can do in this space.

Well, as someone experiencing it myself, I think it's such an important topic to be talking about and I am so incredibly grateful that there is a lot more awareness about it and that people are talking about it more openly and that people like you, Emma, are doing such fabulous work in this space.

But the depressing flip side of the fact there is a lot more awareness now is that ive heard some people saying things like, oh, great, another reason that we shouldnt be hiring women because, oh gosh, we have to give them all this support when they have children or settling them back to work afterwards or they have all these other demands on their time.

This is just one more reason that its difficult having women in the workplace.

And I hate saying this out loud because it just.

Oh, I don't know.

To me it almost feels inconceivable that some people have got this opinion, but I know that they do.

So I think it's important that we address that.

And I'd love to hear your thoughts around this.

Yeah.

And, you know, I.

As well as talking around menopause in the workplace, I also do talks around gendered ageism.

And there's a great quote from the Harvard Business Review article by DL Atal that I say, you know, in those presentations, and they say, in our research, we found no age was the right age to be a woman leader.

There was always an age based excuse to not take women seriously, to discount their opinions, or to not hire or promote them.

Each individual woman may believe she's just at the wrong age, but the data make the larger pattern clear.

Any age can be stigmatised by supervisors and colleagues to claim that the woman is not valued or is not fit for a leadership role.

And you're right, that is the water that we're swimming in.

But to counter that, I would say so.

It showed companies in the top quartile for gender diversity on executive teams were 25% more likely to have above average profitability than companies in the bottom quartile.

Companies with more than 30% female executives were more likely to outperform companies with fewer women at the top.

Those numbers are pretty clear.

OECD figures show us that organisations with a 10% share, a higher share of employees age 50 or over had a 4% lower turnover rate.

The numbers don't lie.

But also we know that when younger employees see older employees being treated with dignity and respect, and given the chance for career growth opportunities, they then develop positive feelings about their future treatment in those organisations, helping attract and retain younger employees.

And, you know, generally, we have an aging population.

That's not very far away.

And yep, we know that we're getting older, the workplace is getting older.

And, you know, women in that sort of menopause or age bracket are the fastest growing demographic within the workplace.

We know that too.

I just wanted to signpost a couple of the podcasts that I've done with Accenture so that some of their managing directors, and particularly one with the two sort of female managing directors, Gill and Sarah, who, you know, have talked very openly about the, you know, menopause experience, they're leading from the top and they're showing that, you know, actually absolutely does not have to be detrimental to your career with the right support.

So, yeah, I would say, you know, looking at the numbers and looking at the companies that are doing this really.

Well, it would be great to be able to link to those podcast episodes that you just mentioned.

If you could share those with me, that would be fantastic.

Thank you.

It's so fantastic to have all of that information, all of that research, all of that evidence that anyone listening can go forwards with at work and say, this is why it is such an important topic.

It's not just about doing things or making adjustments or talking about the menopause or raising awareness.

We're not just doing that because it's a nice thing to do and, well, because it's the right thing to do.

Also, look at this incredible business case that we should be doing it.

I think it ties in so well with some advice that one of my former podcast guests gave.

I think I've mentioned this episode so many times, actually, and I'm just going to look to one side while I double check what was called.

So it was episode number 42, which was called Diversity and inclusion at work.

Seven mistakes to avoid and what to do instead with Doctor Jonathan Ashung Lamptey.

And Doctor Jonathan is absolutely fantastic.

One thing he is constantly talking about is the business case for diversity inclusion.

And he really talks about how important it is to be able to demonstrate the business case within your own organization.

So all of that information that you've just shared with us, I just hope for anyone listening who's feeling right, that's it.

We're going to do something about this.

I'm going to make sure that I enact change within my organization.

I hope that you'll be able to take all of these fabulous resources with you to make a really convincing business case.

But just as importantly as being able to make the business case is knowing what kind of practical support you can be putting in place in your organization.

So, Emma, I can only begin to imagine how much advice you have got around this.

If you're happy to share some of your top pieces of advice and recommendations about practical support, I know that.

Well, I would love to hear it.

And I know that everyone listening would love to hear it as well.

Yeah, well, I'll try and keep it concise and simple.

So training for managers in particular, so they're comfortable having those conversations, which may be awkward sometimes, but actually, you know, having that, that education, that understanding, being comfortable going into those conversations, feeling a bit more unflappable, that can really make the difference, you know, allowing somebody to open up and talk openly and honestly about what they're struggling with.

And then education and awareness sessions.

So lunch and learn style sessions for the sort of the wider employee audience.

And that, you know, that doesn't necessarily have to be for people who are going through experiencing perimenopause, menopause right now.

It might be for, you know, their, their partners and we know that can be really impactful.

It might be for people who maybe aren't quite there yet, but they want to know what to look out for.

Spot the early warning signs.

I know that sometimes, you know, there's quite a lot of focus on, on the negatives around sort of symptoms, but actually, you know, understanding that, you know, one in four of us will get through this pretty much unscathed, we might have no symptoms at all or really minor symptoms.

I think that can be a really big positive for people to understand that, but also to understand what their options are in terms of treatment.

You know, it's not just all about HRT.

Regardless of what you might be kind of hearing on the news or reading in the papers, there are lots of other options out there too.

And, and, you know, obviously some people can't take HRT.

That's a whole other podcast to go into.

And then looking at policies.

So, you know, what policies do you need to review?

Things like your flexible working policy, sickness and absence performance management, and making sure that they all kind of cross reference one another beautifully.

You don't necessarily have to have a standalone menopause policy.

Some companies do that, some don't.

Not saying that there's a right or a wrong way to do it.

And then depending on the size of the company, you might be looking at an employee resource group or some menopause champions, menopause ambassadors, call them whatever you like, but, you know, make sure that you're giving them the right kind of support and training.

There is a fantastic guide out there that has been published by the BSI around menstruation and menopause in the workplace.

There's loads of great actionable things to take away in there.

It's completely free.

We'll make sure we pop a link to that in the show notes as well.

Again, larger organisations might look at sort of employee benefits.

So there are companies is now quite a few of them.

There's Pepe, there's Stella, there's Maven, I think Midi health, maybe just in the US, but new ones popping up all the time.

And of course, we can help with lots of different sessions.

We also do ask the GP sessions with our resident menopause doctor.

I've talked about the gender ageism in the workplace talks that we do.

We do a webinar series about supportive lifestyle changes that can sort of support us through perimenopause and into post menopause, because basically the whole system changes that are going on with the way our hormones are changing have some pretty long term implications for lots of things, including our bone health, our brain health, our metabolic health.

So it's really important that people understand that.

And we also offer one to one coaching as well.

So again, I think that's something that I would like companies to think on, that actually, that can be really supportive for individuals that are struggling, having sort of somebody that they, you know, if this particularly if they're struggling with those sort of their confidence and resilience issues, having that opportunity to have some sort of support that understands the challenges that they might be dealing with, particularly in that sort of midlife stage.

And let's face it, you know, it's never just menopause.

There's the book that I'm going to talk about in a minute talks about the midlife collision.

So we are juggling this alongside all manner of other things that might be going on, on in our busy mid lives.

So, yeah, I think having that sort of.

That support from an organization can be a real game changer.

I always want HR coffee time to be as practical and helpful as possible so that anyone listening thinks.

Right, okay, this is a topic that I'm really interested in.

I've learned loads about and I now know what to do.

I can't tell you how grateful I am, Emma, for just all of this amazing practical advice.

All the resources, all the signposting that you shared with us is truly amazing.

And you've just mentioned or hinted at the book you're going to recommend.

So, having heard all your other brilliant recommendations, I can't wait to hear what this one is going to be.

So you've mentioned it talks about the midlife collision.

What is the book?

Do you want to share the title with us?

So it's revolting women, why midlife women are walking out and what to do about it by doctor Lucy Ryan.

And yeah, there is some of this is about specifically about menopause in the workplace.

There's much more around that sort of additional context of, you know, other things that are going on for us in midlife, but also talking about the sort of gendered ageism in the workplace and really what organisations can do.

So you were talking about, you know, real practical things.

That's a very, very practical book.

Fantastic book.

That sounds like an absolutely fantastic recommendation.

Thank you so much.

And all that leaves me to say, apart from a huge thank you for your time today, is for anyone listening who'd love to learn more about you and your work.

What is the best way of them doing that?

So our website is just managingthemenopause.com.

i'm pretty active on LinkedIn, so you can find, probably find me by searching on Emma Thomas or I think it's forward slash emmactomas.

And if you want to find out more about the podcast, it's middlingalong.com and I think hopefully you will have some links to that in the show notes as well.

Absolutely.

I'll pop links to everything that you have mentioned today in the show notes and for anyone listening thinking, what are these show notes that Emma and Faye keep talking about?

It's a little companion that goes with the episode, that's got some highlights and information about the episode, and it's also got all of the useful links.

It can be a little bit tricky to find them sometimes when you're listening in a podcasting app.

Normally if you just tap on the episode, if you're listening to it on your phone, you'll be able to see it.

But if you're struggling at all, you can find all of the show notes on my website, which is bright sky career coaching.

So just go to the website and then you'll see there is a tab for HR coffee time.

If you click on there, you'll be able to find every single episode with all the show notes there.

So thank you again, Emma.

It's been absolutely fantastic talking to you and I hope that I'm going to catch up with you again soon.

It's been great.

Thank you, Faith.

You are so welcome.

That brings us to the end of this episode.

If you're thinking I had no idea.

It's World menopause Month in October, Faye or awareness dates aren't something you'd really thought of using before to help promote HR wellbeing or inclusion initiatives at work.

Then you might be interested in getting a copy of the essential HR planner.

World, and I know that the planner.

Will reach you on time.

I had some real challenges with delivery times when I was using other couriers and other delivery methods in the past, and I could only ever send planners to the UK.

I'll make sure I pop a link in the show notes so you can see the latest edition of the planner alongside all the other links and resources that have been mentioned today.

The reason I'm mentioning the essential HR planner is because it is packed full of useful dates for you.

So I hope you absolutely love using the planner if you do decide to get one.

And before I say goodbye, can I possibly ask you for a small favour?

If you've enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful if you could take a moment to support HR coffee time by rating and reviewing it on your favourite podcasting app, or sharing it with a friend who you think will find it helpful or recommending it on social media.

Thank you so much and I'm looking forward to being back again soon with the next episode.

For.