120 | Crafting culture: unearthing and shaping the heart of your business, with Louise Kennedy

Hello and welcome back to HR Coffee Time. It's wonderful to have you listening today. I'm your host, Fay Wallis, a career and executive coach with a background in HR, and I've made this podcast especially for you to help you have a successful and fulfilling HR or people career without working yourself into the ground.

And in today's episode, we are going to be taking a look at culture again. The title of the episode is Crafting Culture, Unearthing and Shaping the Heart of Your Business. Because culture truly is the beating heart of any organisation that we work for. But I know that you might be feeling stuck about how to define it or how to shape it, and if you are feeling like that, you are absolutely not alone, because culture can really seem intangible, complex, and feel hard to define and difficult to pin down, let alone start to shape.

So I really wanted to make sure I had another episode for you that felt practical, not just theoretical, and that's why I am thrilled to have Louise Kennedy join us. Louise is great at breaking down things that feel complex and difficult into simple, practical, actionable steps. She takes us through how to clearly define and shape your organisation's culture to help drive business success and create a workplace where people are proud to work.

Louise is the founder and managing director of Oculus HR, which is a multi award winning HR consultancy firm with a mission to provide the right HR services both for today and the workplace of tomorrow. I hope you're going to enjoy meeting Louise as much as I did. Let's go ahead and dive into the episode and meet her now.

Welcome to the show, Louise. It is wonderful to have you here.

Well, thank you very much for inviting me. I'm really looking forward to having our conversation today.

Well, that's fabulous to hear. I'm so pleased that you are. I'm looking forward to it too, because we are going to be diving into culture, which is a topic that has proven to be really popular on the show.

A few episodes back, I covered culture for the very first time properly, and I wasn't really sure how it would be received but it's proved to be really really popular. So it's great to have you on here today to share your expertise I'm, really excited about being able to tackle it again. Because I know that out of all the things you do one of the things you particularly enjoy is helping your clients define their company's culture. So it would be brilliant to know when is it

that you find a business usually realizes that it needs to define its culture and that that's a good idea to start doing that?

Yeah, I think there's, there's so many different businesses do things at so many different times and it can be for many different reasons as well. So that's not a very easy answer for you.

Sorry. But it's. It can be, it can be different points in the business. So some people are very kind of proactive and have a smaller business and think actually I want to define what the culture is just to be able to establish some values, establish the mission and where they want the business to go forward for.

So some smaller businesses want to do that at quite an early stage. Other businesses grow so fast that they kind of, you know, everything's moved along and it's growing fast and you're bringing people in. And then there's an incident that takes place. There's something that's kind of unacceptable within the workplace where people stop and think, actually, who are we?

What are we about? And what are people saying about us from a business point of view? So that can be another point of it. And then a point that's become more and more relevant over recent months really is around the recruitment. Recruitment obviously so, so difficult at the moment to bring, well, to find a person, to bring the right person in and to be the right cultural fit has then made people think, actually, who are we as a culture?

Who is it that we're actually looking for because, you know, we can, we can teach people the skills to be able to do the roles in some roles, but actually they need to be the right cultural fit for the business.

How we see it in the business is that it's very much kind of at the start of a crest of a wave. You know, people are talking about it more actively. People are wanting to be involved and understand more about culture. And I think again, we've probably seen more of a shift of that since COVID because people kind of know what they want out of their work life balance as well.

You know, it's not always about salaries now. It can be about many other areas of it. And actually that's what sometimes businesses need to recognize and understand to enable. them to improve retention, but also to improve employee performance, but, and also to bring people into the business from a recruitment point of view.

So I've probably kind of gone through a few different things there, but it can be at many different points that a company puts a little bit of a stop in to say, actually we need to define who it is that we are and what it is that we're, we're trying to achieve through the culture.

Yeah, it's really interesting the point that you make about how it can be very specific depending on what organisation you're in and what's happening within that organisation.

I guess it goes back to this thinking that there is really no one perfect solution for anything for any organisation, is there? And I suppose for anyone listening today who is an HR or people professional, I guess the advice is about thinking. For this conversation, for this lens of culture, what is going to be the best way of you addressing it within your organization?

Or what are the things about your organization that are telling you perhaps it is time to start thinking about defining or trying to reshape the culture? So thank you for sharing that with us, Louise. I think it's a really important point because I remember fairly Well, not even that early on in my HR career actually, part way through it, really thinking, oh, if I can just find the right way to do everything, there must be a real binary solution to all of the challenges that organizations have.

But of course there isn't. But having said that, I know you are still going to have some very helpful, useful tips to share with us that people can take away and apply. And the very first tip I'd love to ask you about is how do you actually go about that? So if you're in a company or an organization and you recognize it would be a good idea to define what the culture is so that When people ask you, everyone isn't scrabbling around going well, it's nice to work here, or I've been here quite a long time.

I enjoy it. I remember having done a lot of interviewing in one of my former HR roles, everyone really struggling. If one of the candidates asked us what the culture was like, we'd all start answering it slightly differently. And it would feel a bit, a bit awkward and a bit stilted. So for you, when you're helicoptered in to an organisation to help with this, what are your first steps at supporting them in defining their culture.

I think it again comes back to not one size fits all on it, but an example of what we're doing in one business at the moment is that we've we've been able to work with them. The, MD of the company really wanted to have a massive focus around the cultural element of it. So we started working with the senior leadership team at the director level of the team to be able to kind of really establish.

What is it that I think, what is it that the way that the work, what is it that basically what is the now culture and within that particular environment, it was really difficult, they just couldn't verbalize what it was, you know, there was use words such as, but when you come into business, you just get that feel.

Ok. But what is that feel? What, what does that feel actually look like? How are you going to ensure that the next person that walks through the door gets that feel, because actually you're not, you're not providing any information to verbalize any of it. So for that particular business, we've kind of gone and we've, we've really done what we class as a culture challenge on them.

And to be able to sit with them on three different occasions to be able to kind of talk about the business as a whole, the way that strategically work and which interesting enough, when we start doing that, we can start pulling out the words that are regularly coming up that describe the business well, which they're not really putting down, as you say.

Describe what the culture is. Somebody will struggle to be able to, say, oh, well, it's just nice to work here. But actually when people are talking in their roles, we can then start looking at kind of from a strategic point of view, how are people describing the business? You know, how would people describing the actions that are taking place, the processes that are happening, the interactions that they have with their employees?

It's how that all works. So In that particular business, we've done with a senior leadership and then we've rolled that into the middle management level as well. So we've selected different people across the business. We've also taken in that particular company, we've taken in people who are high performance people or people that we might potentially want to, do some succession planning with or do some additional training.

So we've put them in the room and we've done four sessions with them. all around the culture, the impact that it actually makes. And it's been a real interesting exercise because we've talked about what the now culture is, but also from a senior leadership point of view, what would be the ideal culture moving forward in the future?

What do they want it to look like? Once we start verbalizing it they know the rights and wrongs of what they want more of or what they want less of. So that's been a particularly useful exercise to do. And then the proof comes in the pudding sometimes. So in that particular business, unfortunately, as we were doing this exercise, they had somebody who collapsed in the business and unfortunately died within an hour of collapsing.

And he was still on the shop floor at the time. It was a manufacturing business. So he, he was, he was there. He and obviously his family came in, but all of the staff witnessed this taking place. So from a business point of view, when we talk about what they did next. So that was late on a Friday afternoon.

Obviously everybody went home on that day, but then on the Monday, the business reacted straight away. They put the right things in place. They put counselling services in for a week, they provided different opportunities for people to be able to talk. The MD went and spoke to each individual person around the business.

So 200 people, he went and spoke to everybody personally just to create that. And actually the reflection back on that from a business perspective is. What an amazing job that you've done. You know, you were able to cover all of those points that you've been describing in those meetings with us in your actual proof in the pudding of what you did.

So we've done it in that type of way. Another business we've gone in and just sat down with each individual employee, had 15 minutes and asked them about, you know, how the business works. That particular business had been taken over by somebody else. So it was you know, been a new ownership for the last year, what works, what doesn't work, what would you like to see happen?

So, so those one to one conversations in that business, because it's a smaller business, have made a massive difference. So it's about the size of the business that it is and depending on, what they want to get out of it and the ultimate aim out of it as well. For that bigger business we talked about, that was very much about defining what the culture was to be able to enable them for the future.

And for the smaller business, it was to make sure that they were on track and had the buy in from their employees with the new changeover of people who owned the business. So different ways of being able to do different things in different sized businesses, really.

But I love what you've said about stripping it back to the essentials, which is really asking people and talking to them and also talking to people across all different levels.

I bet it was fascinating to see the common themes that were emerging as you talked to that first company that you were describing there when you were trying to help them really define what their culture is. And hopefully that's helpful for anyone listening today who's thinking. Oh, yes. Maybe that's what I could try and do, actually, just start having some conversations or if they're in a larger organization, perhaps you're going to start with a different feedback mechanism, like a survey, perhaps, before you can narrow it down to those one to one conversations.

Yeah, and they're the type of things that you can do, you know, other tools that you can do are using a pulse survey or do an employment engagement tools. There's, I mean, some companies use tools that were available out there. Other ones I had a conversation with somebody yesterday who has a, who has an app that is literally just a pulse survey or kind of an employee voice.

So that is really interesting the way that that's done. But again, all of these things are only any good if you use the data that's provided to you, so when the data comes back in, what do you do with it? And actually what's your actions that come from it? So it's very good to then put together if you're using something like an engagement survey to be able to take that that screenshot of where you are at that time.

But actually what are you gonna do on the back of that? There'll be some quick wins. There'll be some things that'll take longer, but showing your employees that you're taking an interest in what's being said and the difference that can be made based upon what they've said is the bit that you win. That's where you get the buy in from people as well.

Yes, I think there's nothing worse than asking everyone for their opinion and then either doing nothing about it or never feeding back to them on what it is that you've done.

Yeah, and some companies don't do, don't do the feedback part of it and other companies they'll say, okay, we'll put this to the one of our, one of our companies, they've got a culture, a culture group.

So they kind of, they'll put that to the culture group. Then you never hear anything about it again afterwards, you know, so if we're not hearing then it's very unlikely that the other employees in the business are hearing. So if you're going to do it, you need to do it to make a difference and follow through with it.

Don't just make it a hot topic. Make sure it's something that's followed through within the business.

And you have me intrigued now. You've just said culture group. What's a culture group?

So that particular organization, they have a group that focuses on the culture.

That come together on a, on a regular basis, whether that's every couple of months, but the kind of the talk about the way that they that they portray their culture within the business.

The way they do employment engagement surveys just on an annual basis. So the information goes into them, they then can put together an action plan based upon that to feed the information back into the board, which is really interesting. They talk about how they can ensure they have a lot of public coming into their building as well.

So actually, how do they make sure that. Kind of their own brand with what it is that they're doing. They provide funding in different areas. So for them, it's kind of making sure that everybody's kind of smartly dressed with the logo of the, of what they wear and the company. They'll have big signs up across the place and talk about the culture and they'll put things about different interactions that they have with the public that come in.

So a lot of that's then displayed. So the culture group, then guide the business forward on, what is perceived to be right , and what it is that they're actually doing and what they want people to know about, what they want the world to know about, what it is that they're actually doing and the difference that they're making.

And then they'll do big events. So I had an event last year where I had 300 people there to be able to promote all the good services that they do. So they are aware of the culture and it's that next step to ensure that the culture is firmly within place there as well.

Oh, it's fantastic to hear about that. That reminds me a little bit of a previous role that I was in before I became a coach and started working for myself. We had employee engagement champions and they were absolutely instrumental in helping increase the engagement results within the organization. So I love this kind of evolution of the idea, I suppose.

It sounds, well, for me personally, it's a build on that initial idea, I think. I like the idea for lots of different reasons. And one of them is for, again, the person who's listening to us right now in their earphones, maybe thinking. Oh my goodness, I know that I have to start doing more, or I'd like to start doing more to really hone in on improving the culture or defining it, but I haven't got time.

How am I going to do this? I'm just one person, or we're a small HR team, or the HR team's completely maxed out. And again, it's that helpful reminder that actually as an HR or people professional. You haven't got to be doing everything alone. A lot of the time you can actually reach out to get help, whether that's external help, like you Louise, bringing in an external consultancy to support you or doing something like setting up a culture group where you're actually asking people within the organization for their contribution.

And of course, there's so much research that shows the more you involve people, the more likely you are to get great results as well, rather than just trying to fix everything for everyone else yourself.

Yeah, and it's about giving the responsibility to the employees to be involved in it. And some of the reading I was doing, which I quite like the idea of last week was that actually asking the employee to be that advocate for it.

So actually you want people to come to work. You know, not everybody likes everybody that they work with all of the time, but actually you don't want to create a situation. that somebody doesn't want to come into work on the Monday morning, because of a situation that you've created. So actually be the advocate for the business, put the best version of you to be out there to encourage other people to want to be involved.

That's where that living and breathing of the values come through within a business, I think, because we inevitably want people to buy into it and understand it and want to be in there. But actually you want people to treat each other with respect that are in there So each employee's got their own role and responsibility to do when you're looking at the culture. It's not just the business deciding This is what the culture is. We need to make sure that the employees are feeding through to enable that culture to take place on a day to day basis So I think having champions is really important kind of making sure that people keep on track with with the behavior and what it is and actually coming on to the transactional side of things, if people fall out of line or don't treat people with the respect that they need to be, then actually do something about it.

Because I always say everybody's watching. So whichever level it is within the business, everybody's always watching the actions that are being taken. So if you're as an MD and you're aware of something or a senior leader and you're aware of something happening, If you don't take any responsibility, when something, has gone wrong, then people look and think, well actually you don't live and breathe by the values, or you're not living by our culture and who it needs to be about.

So they're the bits that are really important that actually show, show up and do what the role that you're supposed to be doing is, and make people accountable for their actions as well.

You mentioning values is fantastic because that's something else that I wanted to talk to you about because I know it's just such an important piece, such an important building block within this whole idea of culture.

If I take you back a step, you were telling us about how you went into an organisation and helped them articulate the culture by talking to everyone, pulling up the common threads. I'm guessing that you probably also went on to do some values work with them. What I'm a little bit hazy about, and so I'm imagining some people listening might be hazy about as well, is once you've spoken to everyone and you can see the themes.

How do you present that information back? Is it in a written document? Do you say these are all the common threads that we saw coming up? Or do you then move on to the values piece? Could you talk us through exactly how it works?

We would feed back into them. So we would get kind of the, this first example, I'll give you the kind of that senior leadership back together to be able to say, these are the common examples that have come through.

These are the common threads, the good and the bad. We see culture as being that golden thread that runs through the business and impacts on everywhere. So part of that conversation that takes place is then around what difference it can make by having the right culture in place. Okay.

So. For us, it is about feeding back. We don't generally put it into a big report or anything like that because actually, again, it's just something that can easily just be put into the drawer and nobody looks at it again. We want it to be part of an active conversation to be able to take place.

So we've just been talking with the team meeting there this morning and we, we've got one business that we're going to do, start doing some work, but actually we're going to plan it out over a 12 month period so it stays on the agenda, you know, the conversations take place once a month. We're going in and we're doing different activities underneath the culture part of it, but to ensure that the directors are all completely on board and that particular business is, was one business and has bought another significant business.

So there's two joining together. So actually there's a lot around change management, but there's the joining of two businesses together that are slightly different. So it's, it's about, being able to work with people to be able to put a plan in place to ensure that the feedback's consistent Ultimately, it's the business that's making the decision of what it is that they want to go along with, but we use that as a bit of a sounding block because, we can discuss things, then we can, help them out if actually, yeah, that would work, that potentially wouldn't work, you know, it's, it's those conversations that, that benefit somebody external to the business being involved in it, because they can be subjective, honest, where I think sometimes, and, and I'm like, this is my own business, I kind of think.

That's an amazing idea. I'm going to do that. And then it's only a couple of the staff think exactly the same as me. So they're like, yeah, yeah, that's an amazing idea. But then we've got another lady who comes from a different angle. She's like, that's rubbish because of this. And we're like, ah, yes, you're right.

So it is sometimes it's that external view that looks at something or somebody thinking differently that'll challenge your thought about what the next steps are to do it. So. Conversation to me is the most important element of the feedback because then you can come up with your plans and your action plans to be able to take it forward and think about the impact that it's going to make in the business and, and where you want it to make the impact as well.

I can really see that it's the practical application of all of this that's so important to you rather than having everything just written down in a document somewhere that no one ever looks at.

back for a moment to values. I know that you work with some businesses that are fairly new or growing, and they may never have even thought about values before, or again, articulated what they are, chosen what they're going to be for the organization, and that is a piece of the culture work that I'm assuming you end up doing with them and that you mentioned earlier.

How do you go about tackling that? You're presented with an organization that hasn't got any fixed values yet, or maybe even they have values that are not being met at all or just don't feel like they suit that organization anymore. What's your first step? What would you recommend doing?

I think, I think it comes from the conversation element of when people are talking about what it is that they think about the business from a cultural point of view.

It's the thread comes through of what's really important to them. And I know that. When you define your values, sometimes it's not just a case that actually they're done and they're there and they're fixed for life. You're allowed to move your values based upon the business, how it is and how the business is going and how it's adjusting as well.

So I think it comes from kind of the, those early conversations in, as I said, kind of like an open conversation. The values come through from that because you're talking about how the business wants to be perceived, how they engage with other people, how they engage with their clients. Sometimes it's even a good opportunity to be able to put a survey out to your clients, your customers, you know, how do they perceive you?

So when we've done some work previously, we've gone in and looked at the big people, like your Coca Cola and your Ikea's and the bigger companies that actually you look at the values and you go. That's exactly what it says. You know, that does exactly what it says on the tin in there, the values that are kind of shown externally, but also internally as well.

So it's about how to bring all of those things together. So for me, it's very much about gathering as much data as possible, understanding where the business wants to go, but then also understanding what's core fundamental. to them. So one of our values is around moral, you know, kind of what's morally right and wrong.

And so we always say, we always advise on what's morally right and wrong or what's morally right. And that's really important to us because actually from our point of view, from a , a group of HR consultants that are delivering to people, morals is very important, but actually the more I've reflected on that.

That's because that's underpinning me, you know, it kind of underpins me personally, which is where it then comes through. And obviously we're a smaller business, but that's where it comes through that actually, you know, we walk away from clients that don't do things that are morally right.

It's about having that, that, that right level and, and standing by your values that actually, if a person doesn't fit right with what you're about, then actually, are you prepared to walk away from them? Or are you prepared to exit somebody out of the business? They're the type of things that kind of the understanding of your values are really important about.

I love talking about values. I feel like I have to be careful or I could actually turn our entire chat today into talking about values because again, when I started off in my career, I just didn't realize the significance or just how much they really can contribute to shaping a culture and keeping it on track as well.

So I'm going to be very restrained and not start launching into all of the value stuff that I love and move us along slightly to ask you about some of the challenges you typically see cropping up when organisations are trying to define and shape their culture.

What are some of the things that perhaps are a bit tricky or get in the way or they don't anticipate happening?

I think one of the big things is about the resistance of people wanting to engage in it, some people don't see the value of it and just think it's just another thing, it's just another hot topic, so they don't want to kind of actively input to it.

Some people actively input into it, but are just doing it because that's what they think they need to do as opposed to they're passionate about what it is that they want to input into, into the business and how to take it forward with regard to the culture. So I think it comes back to the biggest wins are about employees being involved and putting their input into it, but also kind of one of the biggest challenges is people not doing that. And what you really don't want to do and what some businesses do is say, this is the culture and that's the end of it, you know, not opening those conversations.

So people just implement it. And And that can, that can just be created, you know, sometimes. So one particular business that we've got is a business, a manufacturing business. There's maybe about 20 staff in it, and they had an employee who was a lead employee punch one of the other employees.

So there was then turns into kind of a fight on the, on the factory floor. Um when challenged back to them obviously from a transactional HR point of view that we went in with. We challenged back to them to say well actually that person needs to be removed Doesn't matter what their role is in the business.

You can't accept that type of behavior then All of a sudden they say, well, actually, no, we don't want to, we don't want to lose him. He's really good. He's, he's good at this. He's good at that. He's good at that. So when I've gone back to you know, people are always watching that to me then says, well, actually anybody can fight.

Anybody can have a roll around in the middle of the factory floor, the person that was being, being punched, he then went on long term sick and ended up resigning from the business. And they're the bits there, your challenges, because actually. They've created their own culture just in that one instant, you know, two or three minutes, they've created the culture of what's acceptable and what's not.

And you're never going to be able to change that lead person's perception of what they should be. But then funny enough, the struggle to get the recruitment right, you know, they can't bring the right people into the business who do they identify as the right person that that's okay to behave in that type of way.

So yeah, there's quite a few challenges that come along. I think it just depends upon the people, again, organization, the size of it and, and how quick the culture can be seen to change. You know, that's a perfect instance of how a bad culture takes shape and how actually they're not prepared to do anything about it.

So a huge challenge in that.

What stands out to me in that example that you shared, Louise, is the importance of strong leadership. Have you got any really helpful tips for engaging senior leadership with culture conversations?

I think it's very much about explaining to the leadership what the benefits going to be from a business point of view. So it's about thinking where, what's the point, what's the point in doing the culture piece?

What impact is it going to make across business? And actually when you start to understand that business performance can be. a good result out of it, you know, that, that can be improved if you get the culture right. So from our point of view, obviously very much from the people point of view, you would be looking at bringing the right people in from a recruitment point, because you know who it is that you're trying to recruit and you know what's right and wrong in kind of, you know, you're meeting the people whether it feels like it's a good fit.

You then are getting your documentation right for when people come. So day one, the information that you've portrayed out there from a recruitment point of view is exactly what it says on the tin when it comes in. You know, you've got your culture book that's there instead of your handbook. But then it also feeds into how often you meet with people, how often you do reviews with them, what the job description would look like, how that would make an impact upon them based upon the values and the culture.

It's about talking about culture, you know, having those values and assessing people around them when it comes to doing your appraisals or KPI reviews, whichever it would be. And then doing that across things like succession plan and training plans. And actually the end result of that is we see we have better retention rates.

We have improved employee performance. People are more engaged. People recommend the organization for other people to come and work for. So there's so many other benefits that come from getting the instrumental part of it right, the foundations right. It then can kind of develop on through the business.

So for me, it's about bringing the senior leadership people on that journey to be able to say, This is where we are, this is why we're doing it. This is the impact that potentially we're gonna see. But also monitoring the results. Culture's not gonna change after day one, but over a 12 month period you should see some different engagement levels.

And actually whether that's about less people have left the business, or actually the people that you don't want in the business have left the business because you've, you've created that change element of it. There's, there's so many benefits that you can see, but I think it's very much about. Defining how the results are driven from there as well.

Louise is all such helpful insights and advice I could chat to you about this topic all day But I better be really disciplined and instead move us along to my penultimate question, which is the question I try to ask every guest who comes on the show, and that is whether you would like to either share a non fiction book recommendation with us, or if you have a confidence building tip for us today.

I think I'll go for the confidence building tip. I think one big thing for me during the course of last year was about looking after yourself. I think very much around from a wellbeing point of view, such a big area of conversation that's taking place in, in all of our businesses.

But from my own personal experience, I was able to focus on my wellbeing. And that being from everything from, you know, starting yoga classes to losing weight to kind of having your mind in the right space and actually ultimately all of those things give you more confidence in day to day side of things but also in my business.

It's made a massive impact on the business because I'm in the right headspace because you feel comfortable and confident yourself to be able to make a difference to the team that I'm working with but also to the business as well. So it's been so many benefits and definitely a confidence top tip really.

Well, that is a wonderful tip to hear, especially as I always start the show by saying that this podcast is especially to help everyone have a successful and fulfilling HR or people career without working themselves into the ground.

Because I know just how dedicated so many of the people are who are listening to the organizations that they work in and to the people within those organizations. They really want to do a good job and there's a real risk that you can end up just overworking or, or burning out. So thank you for pointing out the importance of well being and actually tying it in with the fact that it can help you to feel more confident as well.

If you're not completely frazzled, you're much more likely to be able to have that self belief and move forward with things when you'd like to. So, a fab tip to share. We've only had a few confidence building tips on the show so far So it's lovely to have another one. And that brings us to my very final question for today Which is for anyone listening who would love to learn more about your work or get in touch with you, what is the best way of them doing that?

So, you can use our website, that's just oculus hr. co. uk, so you can check us out on there and meet the team on there as well. We have our own podcast, which is called Real World HR, so we're just on our third season of that. They're being released every couple of weeks at the moment so they're really good and we aim them around all sorts of different types of conversations, not just

HR as such, you know, things that really make a difference within businesses. So we do that. Also available on LinkedIn as well. So you can check out Louise Kennedy on LinkedIn. And we also have Oculus HR on then. And we have other platforms, Instagram and Twitter and Facebook as well. But they're, they're our main ones to be able to use.

I'll make sure that I pop links to all of those things in the show notes. And I should say a big thank you to you for having me as a guest on your show as well, Louise.

Yes, I have. So we're looking forward to that that episode being released as well later on this year, which will be brilliant.

Well, all that leaves me to say is a huge thank you for, well, not only having me on your podcast, but coming on HR Coffee Time. It has just been amazing to be able to chat all things culture with you today.

No, it's been great and thank you very much for asking me to come on to you because obviously you can tell culture is something that I love to talk about, and it definitely makes a difference in businesses, so I'm so pleased to be able to have the conversation around that.

Now we're at the end of the episode, I'm going to try something new today, thanks to the wonders of AI. So I'd love to get your feedback about what you think once you've listened to this last part. If you signed up to receive my free weekly HR Coffee Time emails, you can just reply to one of those emails to let me know.

Or you can always reach me on LinkedIn. I'm there as myself, Fay Wallis. The Fay doesn't have an E on the end and the Wallis is spelled with an IS on the end instead of an ACE. The software that podcast interviews has started generating a written summary of the key points that were covered in the interview and I thought it might be helpful to share them with you.

I've tweaked what the AI came up with because it sounded a bit too formal and not like me But I am hoping that it will be helpful. I know that lots of other podcasters do a wrap up at the end of their episodes with a really quick summary of the main points that were covered, because it can be hard to remember them all after you've just listened to the whole interview.

In fact, I have tried doing it myself in the past, but I've not done it that often and I've not been consistent with it. So now I've got the help of AI, I thought I'd give it another go. Here is a quick reminder of the key points that Louise shared with us. She explained that defining company culture can happen at different stages of a business's growth.

There might have been a negative incidence at work that has made you think it's a good idea to start defining and shaping the culture, or there could be a completely different reason that the timing feels right. Asking the leadership team and employees about their views on the culture can help with pinning down what the now culture actually is.

Creating a culture group is one way of helping guide the business to address any issues that crop up and ensure that the culture that's being lived and breathed throughout the organization is what you want it to be. Getting external help like Louise or another HR consultant can provide valuable insights and objectivity when it comes to looking at culture.

Values play an incredibly important role. Challenges in defining and shaping culture can include things like resistance from leadership, resistance from employees, a lack of understanding of the benefits, and also it can be a real challenge if the organisation doesn't follow through on culture initiatives.

Engaging senior leadership in culture conversations is absolutely crucial. They need to be the ones leading the way, but you may have to demonstrate the impact on business performance and results to get their buy in. And with that in mind, there is another episode that you might find helpful if you're struggling to get buy in with a culture initiative.

It is episode 88, How to Write a Compelling Business Case and Get Approval for Your Idea, with the brilliant Jo Taylor, who joined me on HL Coffee Time for her second interview. I'll pop a link to it in the show notes for you. along with a link to the last episode where we took a deep dive into culture, which was episode 114, What Workplace Culture Is, How to Measure It, and a Surprising Way to Improve It with Arend Borsumer.

As always, if you're enjoying HR Coffee Time and finding it useful, I would be forever grateful if you are happy to leave a rating and review for it on whichever podcasting platform you're listening to it right now. It makes such a big difference in helping the show to reach new listeners, and I would just love to reach as many HR and people professionals to help them with their career through this free show as possible. Thank you so much, have a great rest of your day, and I'm looking forward to being back again soon with the next episode for you.